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Fighters vs Wizards - A New (?) Look at Balance...

Beyond saying you know more than someone, can you give more specific complaints or issues?
I think it's pretty clear, for some reason, they rub you the wrong way. But if you wish to have any kind of valid argument besides simply not liking wizards and vague generalities, please get more specific with your issues. Give more examples and specifics to helps us understand where you're coming from.
 

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Beyond saying you know more than someone, can you give more specific complaints or issues?
I think it's pretty clear, for some reason, they rub you the wrong way. But if you wish to have any kind of valid argument besides simply not liking wizards and vague generalities, please get more specific with your issues. Give more examples and specifics to helps us understand where you're coming from.

Ok, no problem. My main issue with 3(.5)E spell casters is that they have been built in such a way that they are only suited for a high fantasy play style and only there they remain in sort-off balance with other classes. If you want to play a low magic setting, the spell casters are automatically overpowered. All other classes need a lot of magical gear to match them in combat. For a fighter to dish out wizards average damage he need a magical blade, potions and maybe even then he won't match that damage. For a rogue to be as useful as a wizard he would also need a lot of magical aid or godly intellect so he would have enough skill points to cover everything wizard can pull out. The fact that a wizard needs a spell book and is somewhat limited by spells per day is a poor excuse for balance because everyone who has played a wizard more than once knows how to get past this. The other problem I have with a wizard is that he brakes the game easily. A 0 level spell like mending is enough put out all the town crafts men out of jobs. I know the idea is silly and that no wizard would actually do this but hey it's there and it's possible. Need I remind you that this is a 0 level spell, heck what about the high level ones such as teleport, this spell kills adventures. Also don't get me started on spell that offer no save for a target. That's just wrong. When a wizard gets those spells, the whole world is at their mercy and no mater how much you sugar coat it and try to explain it the fact remains that in his arsenal he has spells that only need to be cast and the target is doomed one way or the other. If every single other class had an ability to one shot someone by only saying that they are doing something (no need for rolls or damage) then it would be ok but they don't. And lastly most of the other classes need more that one stat to be good at whatever they choose to do. Rogues next to dexterity need intellect, fighters need constitution a paladin is only good if almost all stats are in his favor, a wizard to be a good caster needs only one stat. Oh and one more thing, I always hated how a wizard can fill every role while other classes are narrowly specialized. Need more damage? A shelter from the rain? Protection bonus? Teleport? Flying over a chasm? Need someone to turn into a dragon? Don't know that language? No worries a wizard is here. Further more this painfully extends to combat, a well prepared wizard has an answer for every possible attack or trick. Hell in most fights, all he needs to do is cast a fly spell on himself.

I could go on and on but I see no point in it.
 

I think the mechanics that have been represented to your type of gameplay has allowed you to build this viewpoint of casters. I've always kept the balance by allowing casters to experience gritty-desperate situations. Anti-magic fields turn casters in to wimps. Wild magic causes spells to have completely random effects(usually bad for the caster or at least not useable.). Then there are magic triggers that cause casters to blow all their spells at once with no target, and if they are just wand/scroll jockeys then all those go off too. I think your building off of a theory where there are no consequences to having all this stored power on a character at one time, and as I agree that when the stars are aligned and the DM forgets to keep the balance, then you can trump whatever is thrown at you. In the hands of a good Dm though they will see the imbalance and correct it right away.
 

I think the mechanics that have been represented to your type of gameplay has allowed you to build this viewpoint of casters. I've always kept the balance by allowing casters to experience gritty-desperate situations. Anti-magic fields turn casters in to wimps. Wild magic causes spells to have completely random effects(usually bad for the caster or at least not useable.). Then there are magic triggers that cause casters to blow all their spells at once with no target, and if they are just wand/scroll jockeys then all those go off too. I think your building off of a theory where there are no consequences to having all this stored power on a character at one time, and as I agree that when the stars are aligned and the DM forgets to keep the balance, then you can trump whatever is thrown at you. In the hands of a good Dm though they will see the imbalance and correct it right away.

Yes, but these things are not covered by the rules. Where is a rule in PHB that a caster can't store power? I don't remember rules where wands and scrolls just go off. I don't remember reading in magic chapter; "remember magic is dangerous keep wild magic and anti-magic fields handy to keep wizards in check."
This is something you had to implement into your game to create balance.

From where I'm standing, that's just irresponsible class building.
 

Ok, that's much more informative! You have three basic issues and I'd like to address their merits individually.

1) Low magic campaign balance. This I completely understand, you are playing a home-brew (or highly modified) version of a 3rd edition game. In a campaign world like Forgotten Realms or Eberron, wizards and magic items are in balance with the setting. But, like I often do myself, you have chose to either modify or make your own setting. When you do this you have to understand that 3rd edition D&D isn't set up for low-magic. It's a high magic setting and all the classes, powers, monsters, items and such are all balanced under that assumption. This isn't a fault, this is by design. Thankfully pen and paper RPGs are usually flexible enough to support the changes you are making. Unfortunately, its easy to underestimate the amount of reworking this requires. For my low-magic desert campaign (think Dark Sun with nearly no magic and no psionics) I ended up having to re-write large sections of the player's handbook, not just wizards... but powers of classes, feats, etc. In that setting I used, for example, I wanted magic to exist but to be all but unknown (a dozen casters in the entire world or so). So I changed spells from "per day" to "per week". With the fact that magic was completely unknown, the fear and confusion it brought out in people, this actually made wizards and other casters extremely balanced in the campaign. You'll need to find your own modifications or changes to make them work for your campaign.

2) Balance in relation to commoners and other "normals" in the campaign. This issue isn't a difficult one to handle by the RAW. Wizards should be treated as a highly trained and extremely rare thing. The education required for it is beyond our modern PhD. So yes, a wizard's spells can be beyond normal in the economy and in relation to the other abilities of "normals" in the game, but they are supposed to be. Most commoners have rarely seen magic, much less have an available wizard. They've heard stories... and maybe, at best, in a city they saw a wizard once. Can a single wizard break a village's economy... sure, but that's not a problem in my opinion. Wizards are and should be rare.

3) Fills other class roles. Yes, a wizard can use Knock to open a door, use Invisibility to sneak past guards, it can use Charm to talk a local official into helping, it can summon something to tank, etc. Yes a wizard can do all these things that rogues, bards, fighters, etc can do; but it can do them only a few times due the limitations of spell memorization. A thief can sneak anytime he wants, a fighter can tank an opponent any time he wants, etc; a wizard can do these things once or twice at best. I suspect part of the problem you are having is the same problem I had as a DM (though mine manifested in other ways): timing. D&D assumes a fairly fast, combat-based campaign, and all the classes are based around this (including wizards). In that hard-hitting action environment of encounter after encounter, a wizard shines... but only temporarily. It's a bright flame that nova's out and dims for the rest of the time. The other classes are a steady light in the action, always there, always reliable. Personally, I run a campaign based around intrigue and plots; in game time, days and days (sometimes weeks) will pass between combat encounters. In that kind of campaign, the daily spell restrictions on wizards and other casters are meaningless and it can throw the balance out. The issue here though is you and me, not D&D. If you are having the same issue, you, like me, have chosen the wrong tool for the job, D&D isn't designed to deal with that kind of campaign. Of course, it can be modified to work with such a game, but it will take effort and thought. In my intrigue and politics campaign, Detect Evil spells and their ilk are banned, as is ESP, and other things that demolish intrigue. Sure, I can have everyone involved have proper magics and magical equipment to mitigate this (I've done this in other campaigns), but I, like you, have chosen a low-magic campaign so that isn't appropriate. So my advice, is go with Rule Zero of the DMG... it's your campaign, change it to fit your needs. Get rid of ESP, change spells to per week or whatever you need to fulfill your requirements. Heck, perhaps adding a HP cost to spells (blood magic) or some other penalty might be best.

One last piece of advice: I don't recommend is that you do is make these kind of dramatic changes to an existing campaign. Start a new campaign with these rules up front and the players will know what they're getting into from the beginning. You might be able to pull this off with an existing campaign, but only if the players most affected are positively behind you on it. Otherwise you'll embitter them. When they picked wizard they had a mental image and expectations of what that would be based on the rules. Changing the rules is essentially you destroying those expectations and it's unfair on the player. There are things you can do to change the balance of power in an existing campaign if you feel it's a problem. Make sure the PC's opponents have as much access to magic as the PCs do, use the same tricks they are using against them... divination spells against the PCs can be particularly brutal in allowing the enemy to prepare. Introduce NPCs and property to the campaign... this gives you something you can use to squeeze the PCs with, especially the casters. Sure, the wizard can handle anything you throw at him, but what about his apprentice, love interest, servants, friends, etc? Give the player's a property... and have the NPCs use magic to breech it. You'll find your wizard begin to spend more and more of his resources (ie spell slots) to try to take care of those potential problems and less to take care of combat related or campaign related problems. Give it some thought and I'm sure you can come up with some solutions to these problems. The best way though is starting from scratch with a modified system that meets your needs.

-Arravis
 

Yes, but these things are not covered by the rules. Where is a rule in PHB that a caster can't store power? I don't remember rules where wands and scrolls just go off. I don't remember reading in magic chapter; "remember magic is dangerous keep wild magic and anti-magic fields handy to keep wizards in check."
This is something you had to implement into your game to create balance.

From where I'm standing, that's just irresponsible class building.

I mentioned before that most of my experience was with 2nd edition where there were these rules specifically to keep casters in check. I'm sorry I assumed that 3rd edition kept that in, but I guess it doesn't. If there was imbalance we just fixed it ourselves as a group. What I do remember of 3rd was that it took away a lot of restrictions and opened the gates for over powered, über-builds, which is probably why i didn't invest into it, that just wasn't for me.
 

Thank you for the lengthy post Arravis but like I said before I have handled a spell caster and created a spell system the both my players and I love. It's made for a low magic setting and it works great. Like you said, D&D might be a wrong tool for our play-style. All those years ago I was kind of disappointed and frustrated that you can't play any type of fantasy with 3 editions.

As for your suggestions we can continue talking about the infamous wizard ;)
1) Low magic campaign balance. - What you said makes perfect sense and spells per week is a cool quick fix.
2) Balance in relation to commoners and other "normals" in the campaign. - I know the wizard is supposed to be rare but in reality of let's say forgotten realms they weren't. In one town you usually had at least one or two wizards and in cities at least a dozen. Sure you can play them as rare but then you effectively loose many magic encounters, spell caster villains and npcs since the group agreed those things are rare. Not a good fix in my opinion.
3) Fills other class roles. - Sorry but your explanation is what I've been hearing for a past decade and I just don't buy it. The fact that a thief or a fighter can sneak/fight all the time while a wizard can do that only once or twice really only holds water in a hostile environment. Not good enough for me. Whenever a party has at least a day to spare for their quest, a wizard can do pretty much whatever he wants. Creating 80% of quests that need to be done in a nick of time would get old pretty fast.
 

I mentioned before that most of my experience was with 2nd edition where there were these rules specifically to keep casters in check. I'm sorry I assumed that 3rd edition kept that in, but I guess it doesn't. If there was imbalance we just fixed it ourselves as a group. What I do remember of 3rd was that it took away a lot of restrictions and opened the gates for over powered, über-builds, which is probably why i didn't invest into it, that just wasn't for me.

And that's what I had a problem with. Maybe I should have turned to second edition when I discovered D&D awesomeness.
 

Pacing in a campaign has a huge effect on casting, don't discount it so quickly.

If your group likes 3rd edition, you can modify it work with your needs. I've done it myself and had great success with it, but it does require a bit of work up front.

If you do the "Spells per week" the critical part is to make magic extremely rare and a thing of wonder and awe. Someone casting a spell should be like seeing someone cast a spell in real life, it needs to be an event that a normal person will never forget in their lives. Their reactions need to be appropriate as well. It's the required balance for the massive hit that casters are taking. The other thing I did in that campaign is that if the caster wished to add metamagics to it, they could do so without using a feat, it would simply increase the casting time. The party we had only had two casters, and many combats they wouldn't even cast a spell. When they did, they spent half the combat powering up their spells via metamagics and when a spell was cast it was a thing of devastating wonder and awe. It made magic VERY rare but very special (what I wanted out of it for that campaign). If you want more details on the changes I made for that campaign, let me know and I'll see what I can post or email to you perhaps.
 

Thank you.
I don't have a need of it since I worked long and hard on my own system and setting but we can exchange ideas, D&D stuff is always a good read.
 

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