Fighting dogs, hunting dogs, and making them familiar

[porthos]

There are two parts to this question.

1) Am I interpreting dogs correctly?
2) Am I allowing too powerful of a familiar?

My 1st level players nearly bought the farm when attacked by some dogs. Specifically, the "Riding dogs" from the MM. Smart players that they are, they immediately sought to buy "fighting" dogs when they had the funds, seeing how effective they were.

Basically, I took at look at the trick package for a guard dog vs. a riding dog, the Handle Animal skill, and the "Combat Riding" package. I determined that each trick adds 25gp (and a week of training) to the cost of a dog.

The "dog, guard" off the equipment list knows the "Guard" trick and is 25 gp.
The "dog, riding" off the equipment list knows the "Combat Riding" package and is 150 gp.

So, if players wanted to purchase a "dog, fighting" they could do so for. The "Fighting" package consists of three tricks, thereby costing 75gp. One PC wanted a “Hunting” dog (six tricks), which I priced at 150 gp.

They were in a large enough city to support the cost. And one nasty enough to have fighting dogs at hand for sport or to attack low-level adventurers.

In order to control these animals, they must succeed on a DC 10 Handle Animal check. Handling the animal is a move action, as per the skill description.

Which brings us to question 1: Am I creating reasonable “fighting” and “hunting” dogs that are balanced and fair by the rules?

If so, let us more on to #2…

One of my players is a wizard. He is interested in making his dog his familiar at some point. He is somewhat attached to the dog now (they’re almost 3rd level), so I don’t see it as some sort of munchkin thing.

If I do this, I want to come up with a special ability that makes sense and isn’t broken. But I’m also concerned that as a base animal, this dog might be too powerful compared to other familiars. As the wizard levels, he’ll have a pretty useful familiar (six hunting tricks + familiar goodies) that can do decent damage (1d6+3), has low-light vision and scent, and starts with a 17 AC.

I understand the drawbacks of having your familiar killed will temper his desire to send his dog into combat, but:

Question 2: Is this too powerful of a familiar?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Which brings us to question 1: Am I creating reasonable “fighting” and “hunting” dogs that are balanced and fair by the rules?

I'm not positive what stats you gave the dogs, but if you gave them "dog" stats and not "dog, riding" stats, you did okay. If you gave them "dog, riding" stats for the price of cheaper dogs, then no.

Question 2: Is this too powerful of a familiar?

As a disclaimer, let me say that I think that the mechanic for familiars sucks and in general, it's a bad idea to have a familiar. That said, the guard dog is not significantly more combat oriented than other familiars (based on CR), so I don't think that part's a problem. The tricks become irrelevant once the dog becomes a familiar because he'll have an Int that not only makes Handle Animal useless but irrelevant. So, the wizard will be out some cold cash investment and have a familiar that is comparable to others (e.g. hawk, also CR 1/3). Any perceived combat advantage, however, is remedied by the lack of a special ability granted to the caster. I don't think there's an advantage, so I might give the caster some benefit.

The difference is that the player has a lot more emotional involvement in this familiar and thus the whole experience will be a lot better for everyone. If you don't mind unsolicited advice, however, I strongly recommend entertaining some house rule options on familiars before the dog dies (e.g. get rid of the penalties for dying making it similar to animal companions).

 

[frankthedm]

They were in a large enough city to support the cost. And one nasty enough to have fighting dogs at hand for sport or to attack low-level adventurers.

What do you mean nasty? Dogfighting has a strong tradition in human settlements. I could see an elf or druid controlled settlement against such a thing and dwarves viewing it as too wasteful of resources, but most human cities will have dogfights.

I doubt a riding dog is “too powerful” to be a familiar, it is more of “way too risky” for the character’s XP total. Share spells stops the second the familiar is 10’ from the caster IIRC. It won’t draw AoOs from delivering a touch spell, but it is now quite the target that has no hope in hell of hiding in its master’s robes.

I’d hope a guard dog would also come with the “Down” command. So I say the base dog has 2 tricks at least. I’d say 50 GP should be plenty to get a fully trained 6 trick dog. Maybe 75 for a dog willing to attack unnatural monsters, since I view that trick requiring druid like ability or a heavy dose of what some folks might call cruel training.

Most of that 150gp goes into the riding dog’s second hit die. Trading off riding for a different 6 tricks seems fine to me.

Dogs are nice for the first 4 levels. After fireball hits the scene, they are pretty much toast.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I doubt a riding dog is “too powerful” to be a familiar...

I'd say it is just based on the CR comparison. All other familiars are from 1/10 to 1/3 at best. A riding dog is CR 1.

 

[FCWesel]

The Dog is better from a one-on-one STATS POV, but not so much as to make the thing unbalancing.

Also, folks, keep another thing in mind. The Familiar has half the HP of the caster, which actually means the Dog takes a hit on HP. As per the SRD:

Hit Points: The familiar has one-half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

Avg HP for a Wizard/Sorcerer with a Good CON is roughly 5 per level. A dog (riding) has 13 HP. So at level one instead of 13 HP it has 2-3 HP, at Level 2, it has 5. At L3, 7-8. L4 = 10 HP. L5 = 13-14 HP. So it won't have a normal Dog's HP until the caster is 5th level.

So yeah, it has better INT and a few other famailar knacks, but it is a more obvious target AND has a FRACTION of the HP it would normally have had.

 

[Thurbane]

[b]Familiar     Special[/b]

Dog          Master gains a +3 bonus on Survival checks

(That's what we use in my game, anyway...)

 

[Kalshane]

Yes, fighting dogs can be nasty. But so can war horses. I don't think allowing PCs to spend money on dogs is any worse than them spending money on hirelings or horses. It's fairly common IME for wizards and sorcerers to buy a light warhorse around 2nd level as a way of defending themselves if attacked while traveling. Let the horse do the fighting and just hang on for dear life when you're out of spells.

 

[Ruslanchik]

If your players are buying a riding dog with only three tricks for 75gp ("fighting dog") they are getting a fabulous deal. I would price that animal at 125gp because riding dogs are so much tougher than regular dogs.

If you are going to allow a character to take a dog as a familiar then I would say use the regular dog stats. The Riding dog is too strong to be a familiar. When you could choose a Raven (which is basically useless except as a scout) as an alternative, a riding dog would simply be too strong to pass up. Also, aren't familiars supposed to be creatures that are related to magic in some way, i.e. either magical creatures or associated with "witches" like cats and ravens? Dogs make much better animal companions than familiars, imho.

 

[Thurbane]

According to the SRD:

Dog, Guard = 25gp (i.e. Dog, HD 1d8+2, Small Animal)
Dog, Riding= 150gp (i.e. Dog, Riding, HD 2d8+4, Medium Animal)

(Prices before any training, I believe...)

Personally, I only allow the smaller (HD 1d8+2) of the two dogs as a familiar...

 

[Diirk]

You could allow a riding dog as an alternate familiar with the Improved Familiar feat