• Welcome to this new upgrade of the site. We are now on a totally different software platform. Many things will be different, and bugs are expected. Certain areas (like downloads and reviews) will take longer to import. As always, please use the Meta Forum for site queries or bug reports. Note that we (the mods and admins) are also learning the new software.
  • The RSS feed for the news page has changed. Use this link. The old one displays the forums, not the news.

Fighting With Style, Fighting Styles as Level 1 subclass choices

FrogReaver

Explorer
So it's +20 damage at 20th level? Every time? Sounds a might strong, even at per day (which I'm assuming applies to the cantrips as well). If the cantrips are at will and you want to add level to damage IDK know what to say.
firebolt vs longsword

4d10+20 vs 4d8+28 (assuming dueling style)

Makes them comparable to a fighter with extra attack (assuming no magic weapons)
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
The underlying assumption is that a fighter class that ends up being a 1/3 caster should have the best cantrip in the game. You see the problem there right? It's not about the comparison to longsword, it's about the comparison to cantrips cast by full casting classes. Like I said, it seems like a bit much.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Okay. That has little to do with provide options for fighting styles that exemplify the archetype one plans on taking. Nothing about this proposal interferes with those who want to play that.
The farm boy luke skywalker was loaded with special talents even stepping off the farm his targeting ability was supernatural beyond anything duplicable by trained soldiers.

And our buddy Rand al Thor was trained by a Legendary Swordmaster of a rare and extraordinary style which included mental development and self hypnosis techniques that strengthened his mind and using a heirloom weapon and every one of them had abilities that amounted to reincarnation memories gifts from the Deva of 4e. He was a woodsman not so much a farmer if I recall.

I think pretending they are zero to hero is an error
 

Xeviat

Explorer
The underlying assumption is that a fighter class that ends up being a 1/3 caster should have the best cantrip in the game. You see the problem there right? It's not about the comparison to longsword, it's about the comparison to cantrips cast by full casting classes. Like I said, it seems like a bit much.

They already have the best cantrip in the game: their attack action.

The Eldritch Knight can cantrip and make a weapon attack, though, so +Fighter level to cantrip damage would be way too much.

4d12 (poison spray) + 2d6+5 is 26+12, or 38 without great weapon fighter. 4 Greatsword attacks is 53.33 with great weapon fighter. So you could afford like +half fighter level to cantrip damage, or +Int to cantrip damage and something else, not +fighter level.

Also, this is level 20; remember, the fighter doesn't get 4th attack till 20th, so your be way ahead for a while before that.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
In another thread, we were talking about wanting to move the fighter subclass to first level. I think this would be a simple way of doing it. +1d4 elemental damage to your attacks isn't that much more than duelist's +2 damage, but maybe you could gate it behind knowing the Arcana skill.
I like this.

If you cap the d4 a 1/turn you probably don't need to gate it.
Yep!

What about:

You gain two evocation cantrips and 1 first level evocation spell that you can cast once per day. When you cast either cantrip or this spell you can add your fighter level to the damage dealt.

(I think this also has the potential to fix the eldritch knight war magic ability)
Too much. That’s a full feat.

Wesley is an example of how heroic fiction often features super versatile characters
Yep he’s a rogue. The versatile non magical skill class.

The farm boy luke skywalker was loaded with special talents even stepping off the farm his targeting ability was supernatural beyond anything duplicable by trained soldiers.

And our buddy Rand al Thor was trained by a Legendary Swordmaster of a rare and extraordinary style which included mental development and self hypnosis techniques that strengthened his mind and using a heirloom weapon and every one of them had abilities that amounted to reincarnation memories gifts from the Deva of 4e. He was a woodsman not so much a farmer if I recall.

I think pretending they are zero to hero is an error
They started as farm boys, and then found or learn or otherwise gained rad powerz over time. And Rand is a sheepherder. A “whooly-headed sheepherder” as one of his girlfriends regularly calls him. Which is a kind of farmboy. They live in the woods, ish, on the edge of town, in a very safe place.

I'm 100% ok with +INT and there are lots of precedents.
I like adding 1d4+Int elemental damage to a creature within 5 ft when you make a weapon attack, 1/turn. Directly comparable to Dueling.
 

FrogReaver

Explorer
Too much. That’s a full feat.
It would be the worst feat choice ever on a fighter class - A feat restricted to evocation damage cantrips and spells on a fighter class that already gets all the damage scaling via extra attack. It's mostly just empowering said fighter to make use of the cantrips he choose at times instead of weapon attacks - since they scale about as well now. I honestly thought leaving it at cantrip attacks that were equal to his weapon attacks was not good enough and thus the level 1 spell cast.

Anyways, you don't like it and that's what really counts here.
 

FrogReaver

Explorer
I like adding 1d4+Int elemental damage to a creature within 5 ft when you make a weapon attack, 1/turn. Directly comparable to Dueling.
1d4+int is better than dueling for basically the whole game (providing you up int after str). It's at least better up until tier 4 as long as you have 16 int.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
They started as farm boys, and then found or learn or otherwise gained rad powerz over time.
Yeh found exotic class swordsmanship and heirloom weaponry directly from the man who raised him that is so I repeat incredibly not starting at zero. And being a shepherd is not the foundation of his abilities. In 4e he might have had any number of backgrounds for flavor like shepherd (but flavor is all it is exotic birth story is probably more appropriate) Honestly he was more of a archer ranger than anything else at his lower levels.
 

FrogReaver

Explorer
They already have the best cantrip in the game: their attack action.

The Eldritch Knight can cantrip and make a weapon attack, though, so +Fighter level to cantrip damage would be way too much.

4d12 (poison spray) + 2d6+5 is 26+12, or 38 without great weapon fighter. 4 Greatsword attacks is 53.33 with great weapon fighter. So you could afford like +half fighter level to cantrip damage, or +Int to cantrip damage and something else, not +fighter level.

Also, this is level 20; remember, the fighter doesn't get 4th attack till 20th, so your be way ahead for a while before that.
yea, war magic breaks it. It's not good enough without war magic IMO. So that design won't work.
 

Fenris-77

Explorer
Just to be clear, in one post I advocated for a d4 elemental damage 1/turn. In an entirely separate post I advocated for +INT as a replacement for the perhaps over-powered +LVL option as a bonus for fighter cantrips. At no point did I advocate for 1d4+INT 1/turn. Which I don't hate, but I agree is a little strong compared to dueling.

What I actually liked more was a floating 1d4 to either hit or damage 1/turn because it seemed different enough from dueling to matter.
 

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
It would be the worst feat choice ever on a fighter class - A feat restricted to evocation damage cantrips and spells on a fighter class that already gets all the damage scaling via extra attack. It's mostly just empowering said fighter to make use of the cantrips he choose at times instead of weapon attacks - since they scale about as well now. I honestly thought leaving it at cantrip attacks that were equal to his weapon attacks was not good enough and thus the level 1 spell cast.

Anyways, you don't like it and that's what really counts here.
Im not sure that matters. The game isn’t just damage calculations. Gaining 2 extra cantrips and a level 1 spell +a damage bonus I vastly more than any fighting style.

1d4+int is better than dueling for basically the whole game (providing you up int after str). It's at least better up until tier 4 as long as you have 16 int.
Dueling is every attack.

Yeh found exotic class swordsmanship and heirloom weaponry directly from the man who raised him that is so I repeat incredibly not starting at zero. And being a shepherd is not the foundation of his abilities. In 4e he might have had any number of backgrounds for flavor like shepherd (but flavor is all it is exotic birth story is probably more appropriate) Honestly he was more of a archer ranger than anything else at his lower levels.
You read a different series from what I’ve got on my shelves.
 

FrogReaver

Explorer
Just to be clear, in one post I advocated for a d4 elemental damage 1/turn. In an entirely separate post I advocated for +INT as a replacement for the perhaps over-powered +LVL option as a bonus for fighter cantrips. At no point did I advocate for 1d4+INT 1/turn. Which I don't hate, but I agree is a little strong compared to dueling.

What I actually liked more was a floating 1d4 to either hit or damage 1/turn because it seemed different enough from dueling to matter.
the world doesn't revolve around you ;) you're not the only one in this thread with ideas ;)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You read a different series from what I’ve got on my shelves.
Born to fullfill a prophecy is another background he has (His palms get brands in the shape of a heron that are the marks of the Dragon Reborn in the prophecies )

He is half Aielman in race.

Definitely archery trained starting out at the very beginning and sword use too
I may be squashing a few things together he got his first Heron marked blade from
Tam (his dad), and he single handedly killed a monster while still in the first book. And he is channelling without training in that so yes he discovered that part (its rather hinted at he does it healing a horse)

You were right he was raised by a farmer THIS kind of farmer.

Tamlin al'Thor is the adoptive father of Rand al'Thor. He lives on a farm in the Westwood near Emond's Field, where he raised Rand from a baby.


He has a thick chest and a lined face. His hair was gray with sprinkles of black at the beginning of 998 NE, but by the middle of 1000 NE, it is completely gray. He is described as being solid in virtually every conceivable way.
He has been shown to be a superbly skilled warrior, both with a sword and perhaps even more so with a bow. He essentially never misses a shot, and his capabilities with a blade were such that even Al'Lan Mandragoran saluted his skill.
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

Explorer
Dueling is every attack.
Let's compare

c= chance to hit
Dueling DPR
level 1= 2*c vs 5.5*c
Level 5 = 4*c vs 5.5*[1-(1-c)^2]
Level 11 = 6*c vs 5.5*[1-(1-c)^3]
Level 20 = 8*c vs 5.5*[1-(1-c)^4]

Even at level 20 with 16 int you are doing more damage with your new style as long as your chance to hit is over 65% or under.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Pretty standard for the farmboy turned adventurer, but also why is that a relevant response, and why are you so adamant on this being a debate? I’m kinda not in the mood for any more derailing, man.
his father was a farmer and a heroic class soldier who used the heron marked blade and was known for never missing with a bow. Just saying that many of those in fiction who are pointed out as starting from zero really really weren't.

I would never build them as level 1 - 1e,2e or 5e characters tbh. (less sure about 3e but problaby not there either)

I guess that final is my point.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Explorer
@Garthanos With respect, I do not care about nitpicking examples of zero to hero narratives. I’m not here to follow every possible rabbit hole of a debate that ever presents itself. Rand is a farmboy, his dad barely trains him, and I’ve read these books 7 times. You aren’t going to badger me into agreeing with you, so just drop it.
 

Advertisement

Top