Figurines of Wondrous Power

[AbdulAlhazred]

Figurines of Wondrous Power are a bit of a red haired step child of conjurations. They were written up before the conjuration and summoning rules were really solidified in PHB2. They don't really mesh perfectly with those rules and its not quite clear what aspects of a conjuration should override the general PHB2 conjuration rules and where the newer rules should be applied.

Its clear that FoWP conjurations have their own defenses and make attacks via their own attack modes using the caster's actions. This is non-standard but usually easy enough to deal with except that its not clear exactly what sorts of effects can harm them. My assumption is that in this regard they are treated more like creatures or summons.

The matter of environmental effects and things like gravity is also not really clear because again FoWP seem to be intended to work like creatures. Again my assumption has been that the environment effects them like a creature in much the same way it would a summons. Thus they cannot move in the air and things like pits etc work the same for them as for creatures.

FoWP probably cannot flank. Most summons can't flank either, as they lack the ability to take opportunity actions and in this regard FoWP work in a very similar way. In any case conjurations certainly can't flank either and AV1 seems to indicate that this specifically applies to FoWP as well. AFAIK there is no sort of spell effect that can flank unless it has its own specific mechanism for doing so. Even Spirit Companions don't flank and they DO normally allow the caster to use an OA type power with them.

Resting would not make sense for an FoWP. They don't have healing surges and cannot be healed so what would they gain by resting? Its essentially a moot point. In any case they are just long duration power effects, not actually creatures in the technical sense. Whatever hit points they have when conjured is what they have and that's it.

Everything else SHOULD be answered by the PHB2 conjuration rules.

 

[Turtlejay]

As for what do they remember when re-summoned? I hope not much. Our Swordmage has an Obsidian Charger, and the duration of its summons is something like '8 hours or until slain', and we made quite a few jokes about having to kill it every time you summoned it. Beheading even a stone horse with a Fullblade is a messy proposition. Sad, sad, constantly murdered horse. . .

Jay

 

[Joshua Randall]

After reading that other thread, I'm convinced that if WotC made the figurines today, they would make them Summons, not Conjurations.

I also think there is a lot of sloppiness in the rules around Opportunity Action vs. Opportunity Attack.

For example...

Allied Opportunity
Epic Tier
Prerequisite: 21st level, fighter, Combat Challenge class feature
Benefit: Whenever you attack a creature because of Combat Challenge, one ally adjacent to that creature can make a melee basic attack against it as an opportunity action.

First published in Martial Power 2.

Er... what is the purpose of this power granting an ally something that is clearly an attack, but having it be an opportunity action?

 

[Ferghis]

After reading that other thread, I'm convinced that if WotC made the figurines today, they would make them Summons, not Conjurations.

This is kinda where I'm landing too.

 

[Mort_Q]

After reading that other thread, I'm convinced that if WotC made the figurines today, they would make them Summons, not Conjurations.

This is kinda where I'm landing too.

Seems an easy enough errata to publish.

I sometimes wish they'd have behind the curtain entries for everything... actually state what the intent was... and then get feedback.

Of course that would just elicit more 'beta-test' whinging...

Er... what is the purpose of this power granting an ally something that is clearly an attack, but having it be an opportunity action?

Well, in this case it's to simulate the dog biting anyone that attacks the character that controls it. The action is the PC's not the ally's as the ally doesn't have actions of it's own.

It certainly could have been written more clearly.

 

[Ferghis]

I sometimes wish they'd have behind the curtain entries for everything... actually state what the intent was... and then get feedback.

I was just telling Nikosandros that we might have veered away too far from the fluff. Our focus on just crunch has left us with nothing concrete. Concretely describing the effect in in-game terms would have rendered this particular issue much more clearly than all the crunch WotC has put out so far.

Or maybe I'm exaggerating.

 

[Colmarr]

FoWP probably cannot flank. Most summons can't flank either, as they lack the ability to take opportunity actions

But the ability to take opportunity actions isn't the test. The test is whether you're "affected by an effect that prevents you from taking opportunity actions".

A figurine of wonderous power has no basic attack and therefore can't take opportunity attacks, but it is not by default affected by an effect that prevents them.

As such, IMO they can flank.

Their might be some argument that the power that creates them is an effect and it's inherent in the summons rules that being summoned has the effect of preventing you taking opportunity actions, but that argument seems very convoluted to me.

The more straightforward argument is that an effect means something applied to the summons after it is in existence.

Disclaimer: As usual I'm AFB and I'm relying on the quote earlier in the thread to identify the relevant rules text.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But the ability to take opportunity actions isn't the test. The test is whether you're "affected by an effect that prevents you from taking opportunity actions".

A figurine of wonderous power has no basic attack and therefore can't take opportunity attacks, but it is not by default affected by an effect that prevents them.

As such, IMO they can flank.

Their might be some argument that the power that creates them is an effect and it's inherent in the summons rules that being summoned has the effect of preventing you taking opportunity actions, but that argument seems very convoluted to me.

The more straightforward argument is that an effect means something applied to the summons after it is in existence.

Disclaimer: As usual I'm AFB and I'm relying on the quote earlier in the thread to identify the relevant rules text.

Summons in fact can flank, technically, but the problem is they lack attacks of any kind. Any attack that can be made via a summons is made by the summoner and thus the conditions for flanking are not met. Conjurations simply cannot flank at all. The conditions required to flank are:

1) Must be allies, you can only flank with allies.
2) Opposite sides, yeah OK we know about this one...
3) Must be able to attack. Both allies must be capable of attacking.
4) Must not be under a condition which disallows opportunity actions.

Conjurations fail test #1 as they are not allies, they are spell effects.

Summons generally fail test #3 as they have no attacks of their own.

Test #4 is rather ambiguous and has often been interpreted to mean you have to be actually capable of taking an OA. There could be a LONG and complex discussion on the minutia of statements about what exactly being able to make an OA really means and I'd just steer clear of that whole argument myself as it leads nowhere fast. Probably best to stick to the letter of the rules on this as at least it is not ambiguous (though odd and probably not RAI).

I agree with previous posters, if FoWP were something that was being written up today they would probably be considered summons and not conjurations. At the time they were written however there were no rules for summoning. Note though that even treating them as summons creates some oddities. They certainly will still not work exactly like other similar things unless you really rewrite them to be consistent with the summoning rules. In some ways that makes them more powerful, in others weaker. Overall it should work OK though.

 

[Colmarr]

Conjurations fail test #1 as they are not allies, they are spell effects.

Summons generally fail test #3 as they have no attacks of their own.
...

Test #4 is rather ambiguous and has often been interpreted to mean you have to be actually capable of taking an OA.

I see your logic here but I'm note sure I agree with it.

#1 assumes that something can't be both a conjuration and an ally, and I don't see why that's the case. For example, a Jade Macetail is specifically called out as a "large medium animate" - it is for classification purposes a creature.

Why exactly can't a conjuration be an ally? And if a conjuration can't be an ally, then by extension mustn't you also say that they can't be an enemy (and therefore FoWP can't be the targets of "any enemy" powers)?

#3 confuses attacks with actions. A FoWP can attack, but it must be commanded to do so by someone else using their actions. The fact that is takes only a minor action to command a FoWP to make a standard action attack is a pretty strong indication that the FoWP is somehow doing something of its own initiative.

And continuing the "by extension" review, if a FoWP "has no attacks of their own" and therefore cannot flank, mustn't the same argument be applied to ranger beastmaster companions? They can't take independent actions unless their master is unconscious, so by analogy should be unable to flank while the ranger is conscious.

To be honest, I don't see how anyone could reach the conclusion you mention about #4. "Not being under an effect that prevents X" is not the same as "you must be able to X". Not even close. If anything, this is a RAI argument and has no place in a RAW discussion.

EDIT: I'm specifically only discussing FoWP here. I make no suggestion that my points apply to all summons or all conjurations. As others have pointed out, FoWP have unique and somewhat quirky rules, so even if they can flank, that's no indication that summons and conjurations can. They might be able to, but I'm not familiar enough with the general summoning and conjuration rules to get into the discussion.

 

[Ferghis]

[AbdulAlhazred] assumes that something can't be both a conjuration and an ally, and I don't see why that's the case. For example, a Jade Macetail is specifically called out as a "large medium animate" - it is for classification purposes a creature.

Why exactly can't a conjuration be an ally? And if a conjuration can't be an ally, then by extension mustn't you also say that they can't be an enemy (and therefore FoWP can't be the targets of "any enemy" powers)?

I've got the same problem. I realize the text specifying that summons are allies is missing from the list of conjuration rules, but I think this is mostly because conjurations are usually spell effects, and not creatures. Not considering them allies seems a bit stupid, and not considering them the enemies' enemy seems even more so. But if we need to find some text saying so and there is none, then that stupidity becomes implemented.