Figuring fair EL's

[cthuluftaghn]

Hello,

I'm working on a new campaign, and I just wanted to make sure the first few encounters are put together fairly. In my experience, when an EL matches the party level, the party decimates the foe with little competition (with experienced players.) As such, on the advice of a friend, I normally set up encounters 1-3 EL's higher than the party level. This makes for challenges ranging from so-so, to downright difficult, and it works well.

HOWEVER... I've never tried this with a brand new level 1 party before. The new party I'm DM'ing consists of five level 1 characters. For their first adventure, I am planning four combat encounters... EL2, EL3, EL4, and EL2.

For a level 1 party, is an EL4, or even an EL3 too much to handle... do you think? Keep in mind, it's a party of 5, and my group is all experienced players.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

There are a number of things to keep in mind:

1. EL's often work as they are supposed to. That means that, if Average Party Level (APL)=EL then the fight will generally be relatively easy, if EL=APL +2, the fight will be challenging but generally won't kill anyone, if EL=APL +3, the fight will be quite difficult, and if EL=APL +4, you're starting to get into a potential TPK situation.

Of course, actual performance will depend a lot upon party makeup balance, and tactics (an undead encounter is often easier if the party has a high level sun domain cleric with Improved Turning, Sacred Armor and a periapt of Undead Turning), and an encounter with a lot of undead if most of your party depends upon sneak attack for damage. And there's always a certain variation based upon how the dice fall (if the first fireball is max damage and the PCs' all fail their saves, that changes the battle). However, those are quite reasonable general guidelines.

2. Variation based upon dice is at its most significant at level 1. A single lucky roll (crit) can easily fell a PC and change the battle from difficult to nearly unwinnable. The PCs simply have fewer hit points to absorb bad luck and fewer resources to draw on when it becomes clear they have to pull out all the stops.

3. Not all ELs are created equal. A pair of third level fighters and a troll are both EL 5. But the troll is far more deadly to a third level group than the fighters because he dishes his damage out over a much shorter period of time. (And defeating him requires the party to dish out their damage in a short period of time--something lower level characters have more trouble doing). So, don't use the CR/EL system in place of "common" sense. Especially when using monsters with a higher CR than the party's level, consider whether they have abilities that will tear the party to shreds.

4. Consider timing. A party may easily handle an EL=APL encounter but two of them in a row may be more challenging. In general, encounters are more challenging than simple APL/EL analysis indicates if they occur without providing the PCs' an opportunity to recover/reprepare spells, but long enough apart that minute/level (and possibly round/level) buffs from the first fight are still active. And at level one, that is pretty much saying "any second encounter in one day will be more challenging than the EL indicates."

So considering all of that, I would be very careful about tossing anything EL >= APL +2 (ie EL>=3) at a first level party. It could work if the party includes a competent turning cleric and most of the EL is made up by skeletons (or zombies if the cleric has Improved Turning). However, it is quite risky in general. One good roll for you or bad roll for them could turn the entire battle.

And I wouldn't put more than one or two encounters in the same day. That's asking for trouble in a party where even a competent cleric will have trouble bringing more than one person/day from 0hp to full.

 

[HellHound]

Thread Hijack!

Hey, Brian, what's the status of Grell Head studios? You realize that the link for the company homepage on RPGnow still goes to your personal page which no longer has anything on it but some family photos? And finally, congrats on the Book of Swords breaking onto the top 100 products listing @ RPGnow!

 

[Sir Whiskers]

There are a number of things to keep in mind:

1. EL's often work as they are supposed to. That means that, if Average Party Level (APL)=EL then the fight will generally be relatively easy, if EL=APL +2, the fight will be challenging but generally won't kill anyone, if EL=APL +3, the fight will be quite difficult, and if EL=APL +4, you're starting to get into a potential TPK situation.

Of course, actual performance will depend a lot upon party makeup balance, and tactics (an undead encounter is often easier if the party has a high level sun domain cleric with Improved Turning, Sacred Armor and a periapt of Undead Turning), and an encounter with a lot of undead if most of your party depends upon sneak attack for damage. And there's always a certain variation based upon how the dice fall (if the first fireball is max damage and the PCs' all fail their saves, that changes the battle). However, those are quite reasonable general guidelines.

2. Variation based upon dice is at its most significant at level 1. A single lucky roll (crit) can easily fell a PC and change the battle from difficult to nearly unwinnable. The PCs simply have fewer hit points to absorb bad luck and fewer resources to draw on when it becomes clear they have to pull out all the stops.

3. Not all ELs are created equal. A pair of third level fighters and a troll are both EL 5. But the troll is far more deadly to a third level group than the fighters because he dishes his damage out over a much shorter period of time. (And defeating him requires the party to dish out their damage in a short period of time--something lower level characters have more trouble doing). So, don't use the CR/EL system in place of "common" sense. Especially when using monsters with a higher CR than the party's level, consider whether they have abilities that will tear the party to shreds.

4. Consider timing. A party may easily handle an EL=APL encounter but two of them in a row may be more challenging. In general, encounters are more challenging than simple APL/EL analysis indicates if they occur without providing the PCs' an opportunity to recover/reprepare spells, but long enough apart that minute/level (and possibly round/level) buffs from the first fight are still active. And at level one, that is pretty much saying "any second encounter in one day will be more challenging than the EL indicates."

So considering all of that, I would be very careful about tossing anything EL >= APL +2 (ie EL>=3) at a first level party. It could work if the party includes a competent turning cleric and most of the EL is made up by skeletons (or zombies if the cleric has Improved Turning). However, it is quite risky in general. One good roll for you or bad roll for them could turn the entire battle.

And I wouldn't put more than one or two encounters in the same day. That's asking for trouble in a party where even a competent cleric will have trouble bringing more than one person/day from 0hp to full.

Excellent analysis!

I just want to add my two cents to point 3: be very careful with opponents who have special abilities. The troll mentioned above is one. Another is anything with DR or spell-like abilities. Examples:

A gargoyle is CR 4, and has DR 10/magic. A 1st-level party would be hard put to dent the thing, much less defeat it.

A wererat is only CR 2, but has DR 10/silver. If the party doesn't have a silver weapon, this is much tougher than a basic EL2 encounter.

A kobold sor1 with four kobold guards is EL 2. But if the sorcerer gets off a sleep spell first, a few bad saves and you could be looking at a TPK.

If the party has a way to scout the opposition first, or can run away and return later, then these encounters become much easier. If you have smart players, you can more easily get away with encounters like these, so long as you give them the opportunity to scout, research, etc.