Final Fantasy Zero: Design Diary continued

[I'm A Banana]

Whoops.

Good catch!

Besides that, it has a good jive. It's an alternating set of spells which improve every other rank, just flattened at the top because we don't have a Rank XI. It's easy to remember. I tried to figure out if there was a like pattern on the White list, but I wasn't able to see it. Is there?

The white list has a few spells that are like that -- the Raise series, the Cure series, the "status recovery" series (I notice I didn't call out all of the spells that come from earlier spells in that list, but that's a good identifier of a series). The Cure spells, specifically, should follow *nearly* the same arc as the elemental spells.

Also, I haven't played much in the way of later FFs. That set of seven elements are from where? I don't think I've seen them in I-VII or X, which are the ones I've played. Tactics and XII, perhaps?

You got it. When more variety was present, I sided with that, because the spell list is *still* very anemic compared to, say, the core Wizard. But that's part of the balancing, factor, too. Black mages aren't the Swiss Army Knives of the party the way D&D wizards are.

The Tactics games do have a couple of shadow (or dark) element effects, and some of the others have shadow themed stuff, but FFXI and FFXII are the only ones where the element is commonly used. This set of seven (or eight with holy/light element) is what is used in those games. Also, only in FFXI is there an association between it and the bio series of spells.

Yup! I wanted the black mage to have basic access to a shadow-element spell, and I thought Bio as non-elemental would be a bit too potent, so I made it shadow, following 10. This also makes black mages serve as useful allies for undead -- Bio is a more potent undead-healing spell than Cure is a live-healing spell.

The one thing here that is, so far as I know, completely new is the -et series of spells, the plainly named ones are usually the lowest tier available. It works here though, so I'm all for it.

Glad you like it!

 

[Exen Trik]

Yup! I wanted the black mage to have basic access to a shadow-element spell, and I thought Bio as non-elemental would be a bit too potent, so I made it shadow, following 10. This also makes black mages serve as useful allies for undead -- Bio is a more potent undead-healing spell than Cure is a live-healing spell.

You could also use Dark/Darkra/Darkga from FFXII for that purpose and keep bio firmly in it's "rider" niche but with non-elemental damage. Poison resistance/immunity could prevent damage from the bio series, as a balancing factor along with low damage.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You could also use Dark/Darkra/Darkga from FFXII for that purpose and keep bio firmly in it's "rider" niche but with non-elemental damage. Poison resistance/immunity could prevent damage from the bio series, as a balancing factor along with low damage.

That may end up happening eventually. As it is, the Dark series appears in the "occult" spell list, rather than the "black" spell list, meaning that Reapers access it, too (though they don't gain access to the basic elemental spells). I've done something similar with White Magic and the Banish series of spells from XI so that Crusaders can access curing magic (they gain White Magic), but not the holy-damage magic that white mages get.

I'm not sure how set in stone those lists are, though.

In part, I'm still wary of giving black mages a reliable non-elemental spell at low level. I like them having to choose until they get to the higher levels with spells like Ultima. Keeping non-elemental attacks firmly high-level and/or purely physical in nature is a division that the games have that I'd like to keep. If I do change Bio to non-elemental, I'd probably want to reduce it to a short, high-level-only chain.

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

Re. Bio: My guess is that it's fine either way, but if I were designing it, I'd skip the straight damage altogether and just leave it up to the poison. I assume you've already considered this option and discarded it; care to comment on any obvious (or non-obvious) impediments to that?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Re. Bio: My guess is that it's fine either way, but if I were designing it, I'd skip the straight damage altogether and just leave it up to the poison. I assume you've already considered this option and discarded it; care to comment on any obvious (or non-obvious) impediments to that?

Tracking statuses can get obnoxious.

The Bio series (and spells like Scourge from FFXII) also have a history of dealing pretty good initial damage, too. I remember the spell in VI being a reliable group-extermination device right up to Kefka's Tower.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hey! Here comes the first Orisha! You should recognize him from a few games.

This means that I've basically got all the necessary elements to make a game. Now I just need to put 'em together and expand 'em a little, and it's all down hill from here!

 

[Arkhandus]

.........and more flexible (low-level spells can be fairly cheaply turned into multi-target spells: no extra MP is spent, the spell is just weaker).

Y'know, I'm kinda leery of that. Shouldn't multiple targets at least cost a bit more MP? Like +50% or so, maybe?

I'm torn often between simplifying the spell list (each spell should be useful at all levels, unless it's part of a chain that levels up...no spell should duplicate what another does with a minor variation) and keeping FF flavor (if Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder were all the same spell, it wouldn't feel right...)

I think I prefer the style of spells you've got going right now, rather than a super-simplified spell list that would kinda detract from the game's flavor. The spell lists are reasonably sized as-is, so there's really no need to super-compact them. I'd actually like to see a few more spells added (just a few, mind you; 1-2 per spell level, depending on what's added).

White Magic
Rank 0
Comfort: Can Take 10 on Endurnace checks vs. the environment

Spell check: Endurance.

Rank I
Elemental Force Field: Gives a “buffer” with its own hp against a specific element
Sanctuary: Creatures can’t attack target without a MND check; target can’t attack them
Magic Parry: Target can negate an attack with an ATK check
Unspell: One Boon on the target has its MAG value reduced.
Repose: Preserves a body so that it can be raised later.

What, no 1st-rank/1st-level healing spells? From White Magic??? No way.... I think ya should add a Regenet to the Rank 1 White Magic spells. Would grant fast healing, like fast healing 1, for a short duration (probably healing an amount moderately better than Curet?).

Rank II
Safe: +50% DEF and VIT.
Shell: +50% MND.
Spikes: Target is deals physical damage to their attackers

I reject the name Safe and compel you to rename it Protect!! Also, Spikes' blurb is mixed up. Guess it's supposed to say 'Target deals physical damage to their attackers.'

Rank III
Prolong Life: Target can remain at Wounded status for 10 + Con Mod. more hp.

I insist that Regen be added to Rank III; probably fast healing 2 or 3, otherwise like Regenet, but max healing would be somewhat beyond Cure.

Rank V
Nullspel: Strips all Boons from the target

Should probably/maybe be spelled as Nullspell......? Also, I insist that Regena, Regenra, or Regenera be added to Rank V; likely to be fast healing 3 or 4, max healing a moderate amount above Cura.

Rank VI
Peerless: Target becomes invulnerable to damage

Rank VII
Decoy: Willing target becomes the focus of enemy’s attentions

I would suggest swapping the levels these are at, or something similar; I think Peerless should be a higher-level effect, while Decoy really ought to be a bit lower, IMHO. Also, again: I would add Regenga, Regenega, or Regenerga to Rank VII, giving fast healing 4 or 5 with a maximum amount of healing similar to, or a bit above, Curaga; and maybe the added effect of allowing severed limbs to be reattached during the spell's duration, as long as they haven't decomposed yet.

Rank IX
Full Life: Target is healed of Swoon status, and healed to maximum hp

Rank X
Full Cure: Heals all hit points (From Curaja)
Esuna: Completely heals all ailments

Question: why is Full Life a rank-9 spell while Full Cure is a rank-10 spell? Full Life provides greater benefit. Perhaps Full Cure should at least have some added advantage in that it can affect multiple targets with little or no penalties/extra costs/whatever? And maybe a quicker casting time?

Additionally: Think there needs to be another 1-2 spells of Rank VIII, Rank IX, and Rank X. Among them, Regenja, Regeneja, or Regenerja at Rank IX, giving fast healing of 5 or 6 (maybe 7 or 8?, even?) and a maximum healing value moderately greater than Curaja (maybe a shorter duration than earlier Regens though, if giving the boost of FH 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6), and the added benefits of limb reattachment and limb regeneration (probably within 3d4 rounds for each severed limb? Or maybe just at the end of the spell's duration?).

 

[Arkhandus]

Also, a few brief thoughts on the Black Magic spell list:
I think the Thunder line might be too potent if it can't be resisted/saved against or whatever. Maybe instead it should just incur a penalty on the foes' saves or whatever?

Also, I think there needs to be an Acid line of spells (maybe call 'em Melt?).

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'll preface this by saying that it's all in the early phases, so it can change if there's definite problems noticed.

Y'know, I'm kinda leery of that. Shouldn't multiple targets at least cost a bit more MP? Like +50% or so, maybe?

It's a good fear. I debated between adding more MP, but found that it was pretty unnecessary since I'm also using the CRPG's method of simply reducing the effectiveness of spells. The PsiHB would be the model I would normally follow, and it costs more points to affect more targets, but the target is affected at "full strength," basically making it a higher-level power. Kind of like AE's idea of powering up a spell by spending a higher-level slot. Instead, I reduce the strength of the spell against multiple targets, basically making it a lower-level power. Kind of like AE's idea of powering-down a spell by spending a lower-level slot. So multiple targets are affected significantly less than a single target. Adding a higher mp cost would kind of be a double-whammy against spellcasters: They'd do less, and do it less often.

I think I prefer the style of spells you've got going right now, rather than a super-simplified spell list that would kinda detract from the game's flavor. The spell lists are reasonably sized as-is, so there's really no need to super-compact them. I'd actually like to see a few more spells added (just a few, mind you; 1-2 per spell level, depending on what's added).

I think I've found the happy medium. Further boinking around might reveal a need for a few more spells per level, and there's always room to add cool new stuff. New spells are going to be one of the easiest ways to expand the game for specific settings or styles.

What, no 1st-rank/1st-level healing spells? From White Magic??? No way.... I think ya should add a Regenet to the Rank 1 White Magic spells. Would grant fast healing, like fast healing 1, for a short duration (probably healing an amount moderately better than Curet?).

Check Rank 0: Curet. The Cure series (like the Fire, Thunder, and Blizzard series) advances on even levels.

The regenet spell definately isn't a bad idea, though, and, yeah, like you said, a white magic level without healing is MADNESS. Currently, I've just got "regen" as a Gray-magic spell that works like the opposite of venom, and I like the sound of the "regen" series you've got going on....it'll probably be YOINKED.

I would suggest swapping the levels these are at, or something similar; I think Peerless should be a higher-level effect, while Decoy really ought to be a bit lower, IMHO.

Good idea...having Peerless early allows people to do add Peerless to a target, then use Decoy, to basically make the party immune to damage for a few turns. That's a bit too simple for my tastes, so you'll probably see those swapped (at least...Peerless might end up quite high-level).

why is Full Life a rank-9 spell while Full Cure is a rank-10 spell? Full Life provides greater benefit. Perhaps Full Cure should at least have some added advantage in that it can affect multiple targets with little or no penalties/extra costs/whatever? And maybe a quicker casting time?

Another good catch! I like the idea of making Full Cure have less reduction against multiple targets, so that'll probably find it's way in, too.

Think there needs to be another 1-2 spells of Rank VIII, Rank IX, and Rank X. Among them, Regenja, Regeneja, or Regenerja at Rank IX, giving fast healing of 5 or 6 (maybe 7 or 8?, even?) and a maximum healing value moderately greater than Curaja (maybe a shorter duration than earlier Regens though, if giving the boost of FH 7 or 8 instead of 5 or 6), and the added benefits of limb reattachment and limb regeneration (probably within 3d4 rounds for each severed limb? Or maybe just at the end of the spell's duration?).

Pretty brilliant, man. I'll probably be taking that suggestion. Consider it added.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Also, a few brief thoughts on the Black Magic spell list:
I think the Thunder line might be too potent if it can't be resisted/saved against or whatever. Maybe instead it should just incur a penalty on the foes' saves or whatever?

Also, I think there needs to be an Acid line of spells (maybe call 'em Melt?).

I'm a little worried about the Thunder series, too, so I like that suggestion.

As far as an Acid line of spells goes, though there's no real precedent in the CRPG's, there's definitely nothing wrong with an acid series. I probably won't add it for the core, but it's a peachy-keen idea.