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FIND STEED: Your Pony Has Opinions

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Well, of course that is your prerogative. However, as the spell forces the spirit to be loyal to the caster, it should do what it can despite any pain or discomfort it might feel either from direct damage or the forced ending of the spell in service to the summoner. The caster should understand the steed's role is a disposable creature, because its physical body is temporary, and the spirit can be summoned again later on, fully restored. Thus, only the form is disposable, but the bond/spirit can still be greatly valued--even more so due to the caster's understanding of the possible sacrifice/pain given in service. The spirit would understand this as well. It's (possible) pain in service to the caster likely prevents harm to the caster and is a badge of honor so to say.

Now, if the player throws their steed to the wolves (literally even LOL) repeatedly and shows no appreciation or remorse, they might not go insane, but should drift towards neutrality or even evil in alignment. Such acts, without feeling for the fate (albeit temporary) of the steed is hardly the act of a good person IMO. Of course, even then, they know their steed will return unharmed.

That is my take, for what it's worth. :)
Considering that this is what is done regularly with Conjure XX creations, including sentient creatures, and has never been consideed an evil act, I don't see this is any different.

If you want this for your world, that's great. And I'd play there - it sounds like an interesting twist. But since sending conjured beings to fight and die has been a long established part of play, there is nothing to stand on for general audiences that this now will shift the caster toward insanity or evil alignment.
 
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lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Unfortunately, unlike Ikea meatballs which sit in your stomach like lard laced with concrete, the paladin's steed disappears when it dies. Not very filling.

I know this because I had a dwarf who viewed steeds as backup food supply and couldn't understand why we couldn't just carve up the paladin's steed for supper. It could have hobbled around on three legs for a while as the food digested.

Stupid selfish paladins. :(
It could have been worse- the steed could have been used for glue. "Whaddya mean, it came loose again? Better summon another steed!"

The lesson, as always, is Paladins are the worst.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
It could have been worse- the steed could have been used for glue. "Whaddya mean, it came loose again? Better summon another steed!"

The lesson, as always, is Paladins are the worst.
Unless of course it's a gnomish paladins dual wielding rapiers. Because sometimes if something is awful enough it circles back around to being awesome. ;)
 

Mistwell

Hero
The steed is described as "intelligent, strong, and loyal", but that doesn't mean that the steed is ...suicidal.
"You summon a spirit that assumes the form of [mount form]...When the steed drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. You can also dismiss your steed at any time as an action, causing it to disappear. In either case, casting this spell again summons the same steed, restored to its hit point maximum."

Asking the steed to do something which could make it disappear and return to it's natural spirit form on it's native plane of existence is not asking it to commit suicide.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Unless of course it's a gnomish paladins dual wielding rapiers. Because sometimes if something is awful enough it circles back around to being awesome. ;)
I reject your hypothesis! Awesomeness and awfulness are not like early-80s video games, where you score so high it resets back to 0. Because if that were the case, then Katana would be so awesome it would break the register completely, and be awful.

And as we all know, that cannot happen, as it goes against the will of God and Gygax (but I repeat myself).

Instead, Gnomish Paladin dex builds dual wielding rapiers are so awful, that they break the universe; they become a singularity of suckitude, drawing all things closer to them with their grasping little hands, and should you get too close (colloquially referred to as the "Oh my goodness, this character build is so annoying horizon!") you will be forever trapped in an endless maze filled with Drizzt Clones and co-workers who constantly say, "Hot enuff for ya?"
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
Considering that this is what is done regularly with Conjure XX creations, including sentient creatures, and has never been consideed an evil act, I don't see this is any different.

If you want this for your world, that's great. And I'd play there - it sounds like an interesting twist. But since sending conjured beings to fight and die has been a long established part of play, there is nothing to stand on for general audiences that this now will shift the caster toward insanity or evil alignment.
Actually, I feel the steed knows it is there to serve and protect the caller, even gladly sacrificing its physical form to do so. My comment was more geared towards tables that insist there should be some repercussions for using your steed as cannon fodder repeatedly.
 
"You summon a spirit that assumes the form of [mount form]...When the steed drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. You can also dismiss your steed at any time as an action, causing it to disappear. In either case, casting this spell again summons the same steed, restored to its hit point maximum."

Asking the steed to do something which could make it disappear and return to it's natural spirit form on it's native plane of existence is not asking it to commit suicide.
There are situations in which the steed could be trapped such as an inverted magic circle, at which point some devious necromancer could attempt to corrupt or tear apart the steed's very existence in the name of research.

There are monsters that could devour souls, preventing the steed from re-incorporating itself.

Dying itself could be an unpleasant traumatic experience for the steed, whether physically or mentally. It's not like the steed is some toaster without awareness.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
There are situations in which the steed could be trapped such as an inverted magic circle, at which point some devious necromancer could attempt to corrupt or tear apart the steed's very existence in the name of research.

There are monsters that could devour souls, preventing the steed from re-incorporating itself.

Dying itself could be an unpleasant traumatic experience for the steed, whether physically or mentally. It's not like the steed is some toaster without awareness.
I thought Dannyalcatraz had already clarified that steeds were cylons. Now I'm really confused! :confused:
 
I thought Dannyalcatraz had already clarified that steeds were cylons. Now I'm really confused! :confused:
They're actually not. Unlike certain other similar spells, Find Steed does not specify that the steed obeys to the best of its ability. It is able to disobey orders if it feels a need to, especially if the player decides to make the PC abusive with commands. It's easy to mix up Find Steed with spells like Conjure Fey and Conjure Minor Elementals that DO specify that the summoned creatures obey commands. Find Steed is special in that the steed has a level of autonomy and an instinctive bond with the caster that allows the two to act as a seamless unit, but does not remove the steed's ability to disagree and disobey in extraordinary circumstances nor prevent it from acting on its own.
 

coolAlias

Explorer
While I appreciate it may not have worked out very well in 5e, I kind of miss the good old days of living steeds and familiars. If it dies, it's dead, and you have to find a new one (which was either impossible or very difficult for paladins).

Nah, who am I kidding. Nostalgia is great, but permanent companion death rarely if ever contributed to my fun even back then.
 

MarkB

Hero
While I appreciate it may not have worked out very well in 5e, I kind of miss the good old days of living steeds and familiars. If it dies, it's dead, and you have to find a new one (which was either impossible or very difficult for paladins).

Nah, who am I kidding. Nostalgia is great, but permanent companion death rarely if ever contributed to my fun even back then.
It did make a difference in how we viewed the mount, though. I recall a 3e game in which I played a half-orc paladin called Grudnuk whose steed was a dire weasel named Fluffles. When the party was captured by a large hunting party from an orc tribe, the only way he could dissuade them from killing his mount was to swear on his honour as a paladin that he would make no attempt to escape as they were transported back to the tribe's stronghold.

When the hunting party stopped to rest that night, the escape was on. Fluffles, without any prompting from Grudnuk, wriggled loose from his bonds and nibbled the ropes from the captured party members. While a diversion was created on the edge of camp, Grudnuk helped his companions aboard his steed - and ordered Fluffles to run off into the night. Then he went back and sat down in the centre of the camp, and waited for the orcs to come back.

Sure, it left the party split, and led to the rest of them having to sneak back in the next night and rescue Grudnuk without waking him up, but it was a cool bit of tension that resulted from the mount being mortal.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
They're actually not. Unlike certain other similar spells, Find Steed does not specify that the steed obeys to the best of its ability. It is able to disobey orders if it feels a need to, especially if the player decides to make the PC abusive with commands. It's easy to mix up Find Steed with spells like Conjure Fey and Conjure Minor Elementals that DO specify that the summoned creatures obey commands. Find Steed is special in that the steed has a level of autonomy and an instinctive bond with the caster that allows the two to act as a seamless unit, but does not remove the steed's ability to disagree and disobey in extraordinary circumstances nor prevent it from acting on its own.
I guess I failed my "humor" check. He made the analogy of steeds being cylons which of course were referred to as toasters ... get it? Steeds are toasters? Ha ha? :giggle:
 
I once played in an adventure where the Steed summoned the Paladin (and the rest of the party) to his home in the Beastlands. There the party had to help the Steed and his herd defeat an invasion of trans-dimensional industrial robots, who were clear-cutting the forests and polluting the rivers.
 

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