Find the Anime Challenge

[Benben]

Anybody who's read a Flash (or related) comic would think differently, I think.

For example, the cover of Impulse #81:

Yes for a very high powered super hero. The multiple hits at once is a more common visual technique for lower powered characters in Asian storytelling. Chinese martial arts comics do this a lot.

However Nightcrawler from the X-Men did that sort of thing all the time during the 80s.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Take this guy... I'd say he's clearly derivative of your typical anime villain, white hair, uber cool sword, impractical armor and all. Were it in a 3rd edition product, you knwo someone would have posted it by now.

That artist is an actual comic book artist.

 

[darkseraphim]

Well, I believe the contest to be impossible to win, due to the predisposition and inherent bias of the OP.

That being said, this is one of the best discussions of the topic I’ve seen.

For me personally however the “anime” feel in 3E+ is not just about the art, but also the dynamics of the action. It goes beyond morphology and directly into play mechanics.

I would give the following as some examples in the change of flavor:
* The naming of special non-spell powers
* Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow
* The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent
* The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger
* The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9
* The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)
* Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,” rather than the archetype

On the art, it’s a mixed bag. There are some examples that are, IMO, inarguably, absolutely anime-inspired. But I’m old enough to remember the progress of Japanese influence on Western fantasy. In the 70s, it was Godzilla and Shogun Warriors creeping into the comics; today, it’s much more widespread.

I feel I must qualify this by saying that a lot of 1E art just did not agree with me. I feel that Trampier was the best at capturing the feel of 1E for me personally, with his plausibly armed and equipped characters facing mortal danger, and consistently under-stylized monsters. For BECMI, I felt the more heroic and “clean” approach was exemplified by Elmore.

All of this just goes to show that it’s strictly a matter of opinion; it’s fine to agree with others’ insight or to get angry at their insistent dissent, but to think that you can change anyone’s mind with your own personal experience … that’s when things tend to tricky. Interesting, yes, but tricky and sometimes uncivil.

 

[WizarDru]

* The naming of special non-spell powers
* Super-heroic combat effects, such as hitting multiple opponents with the same blow
* The move away from anthropomorphic characters that have a folklore precedent
* The limitation of character death, the inclusion of balanced encounters vs. player estimation of danger
* The focus on high-level play (and, as such, “superpowers”) over the traditional sweet spot of levels 4-9
* The rapidity of leveling (akin to an RPG videogame)
* Character customization moving the focus to the “uniquely stylized dramatic loner,” rather than the archetype

I'm not sure I follow you, here. GURPS and HERO had most of these things by 1986. Even AD&D had NWPs, skills and lots of special abilities with fanciful names. The introduction of feats certainly has stripped that out, but 3e absorbed a lot of this from influences that have little to do with anime. The issue of character death and balance has been debated almost as long as the game has been in play, as has the 'sweet spot' discussion. In fact, WotC's research showed that most people never played the higher levels because they never managed to reach them before a game broke up...it was a very conscious decision to speed up the leveling mechanic to make that material more accessible to larger swaths of people. Anime really had no influence at all with it. The only shift I see away from a 'folklore precedent' is the move away from obvious cribbing of published works of fantasy, particularly Tolkien (remember when the ranger had the ability to use scrying devices?).

As to the video game idea...well, read my .sig. Video games GOT the idea of level advancement FROM D&D, not the other way around.

But I’m old enough to remember the progress of Japanese influence on Western fantasy. In the 70s, it was Godzilla and Shogun Warriors creeping into the comics; today, it’s much more widespread.

Yeah, I remember those comics, too. They ran from 1979-1980 for 20 issues in support of Mattel's toy line. They were a toy license (a fun one), but if you look at them, they were VERY western comics. They looked very different from the original material from which they were cribbed. I mean, the Shogun Warriors fought alongside the Avengers and Fantastic Four, and Godzilla fought a supervillian called Dr. Demonicus.
Compare THIS with THIS. Like the Marvel Transformers comics that would follow a few years later, they were almost a rejection of the anime style. That would change later, of course....but Godzilla and Shogun Warriors are two really great examples of anime NOT influencing American comics and art. Shogun Warriors had no more influence on American comic art than Rom: Spaceknight.

 

[Nifft]

Some of the art posted after your thread look very anime. But it the art is not anime enough it sounds like the new rules will japanime-naruto-ki-jitsu-the force/starwars and does not fit my ideas of Sword and Sorcery.

Parse error.

Aborting, -- N

 

[Deekin]

I founded teh Anime?! What do I winz?

(This is the closest thing I've seen to manga in a D&D book)

 

[Nifft]

I founded teh Anime?! What do I winz?

(This is the closest thing I've seen to manga in a D&D book)

How is this teh anime?
- Eyes look normal
- It has a nose
- No visible "face faults"
- Head in proportion to body

Seriously, what stylistic elements are you talking about?

Cheers, -- N

 

[darkseraphim]

I'm not sure I follow you, here. (snip)

Sure, I’ll try to clarify and keep it anime-related if I can. Keeping in mind of course that anime is a highly kinetic style and it’s as much about action as it is about art.

I do recall playing GURPS (and Man vs. Man?) ~1985-1987, and seeing how everything was individually quantified; I actually found it quite entertaining for Autoduel and Horror. But that was a highly tactical play style that I didn’t associate with D&D. In fact by that time I was already clarifying what “fit” in a pulp/classic RPG and what didn’t; GURPS IMO didn’t fit. HERO seemed like a lot of fun but again, better for running high-powered campaigns.

I don’t recall Non-Weapon Proficiencies being put in the game until 1986ish with the Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide and Oriental Adventures. More specifically, however, I was referring to epic feats and such that remind me less of D&D and more of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

I’m familiar with the leveling speed issue, as I got stuck in some of the ~1999 debates on the issue. I still feel that leveling should be slowed, to encourage careful play, increase in player skill (familiarity with party synergy and class growth over time) and the sense of danger. I personally feel that this could be best facilitated by encouraging campaign start-ups at various levels (1, 5, 10, 15) as opposed to hyper 1-20, but that’s another discussion.

On the races, I feel that folklore-based races create a subconscious baseline of what is fantastical and what is not in the mind of a new player. I can see exotic races (warforged, half-fiend, what-have-you) appealing to player choice, but also diminishing the sense of wonder associated with coming into contact with the uncommon.

On to the art, as opposed to the style:

My reference to Godzilla and Shogun was actually in line with yours, in that I was saying that in the 70s, Western art tended to assimilate Japanese influence and make it a workable integrated component. It’s mostly in the post-FFVII / Ghost in the Shell age that we’re finding that lots of Western art is seeking not to assimilate Japanese style, but rather to emulate it.

But a very good post and I’m appreciative that even if you didn’t follow my intent, you knew what I was referring to.

 

[Klaus]

How is this teh anime?
- Eyes look normal
- It has a nose
- No visible "face faults"
- Head in proportion to body

Seriously, what stylistic elements are you talking about?

Cheers, -- N

- The eyes are too slanted, too wide and too close to each other to be considered "normal". Those are stylized eyes. Not every manga/anime character has the same Sakura Card Captor eyes.

- Not every manga/anime character is noseless. And it's barely an indication of a very small nose.

- Face Faults? Saint Seya, Battleship Yamato and others doesn't use Face Faults. Is it nor anime?

- Yes... if the normal proportion is 10 heads tall. Plus the head is shaped like an upside-down teardrop, with a rounded top and a pointy chin, which is a very common technique in manga/anime.

- The weapon is straight out of an anime someone posted a while ago. And I do mean "straight out".

- Heavily stylized posing is also very common in anime/manga. All that is missing is the enemy in the background standing still for a moment before falling to the ground, dead. And that specific pose, with one foot up, is very martial-arts.

 

[Nifft]

- The eyes are too slanted, too wide and too close to each other to be considered "normal". Those are stylized eyes. Not every manga/anime character has the same Sakura Card Captor eyes.

I'll defer to you on the eyes, since you draw way more of them.

- Not every manga/anime character is noseless. And it's barely an indication of a very small nose.

- Face Faults? Saint Seya, Battleship Yamato and others doesn't use Face Faults. Is it nor anime?

Aww, c'mon. Don't make me hit your false binary straw man with my +4 bat of graded set membership category theory.

I'm asking what specifically calls out "anime", and listing some criteria. Face faults would be sufficient IMHO, but they are not necessary.

- Yes... if the normal proportion is 10 heads tall. Plus the head is shaped like an upside-down teardrop, with a rounded top and a pointy chin, which is a very common technique in manga/anime.

I can't see a chin in that picture. I don't know how you're able to tell the exact vertical extent of the head. Is it really out of proportion?

- The weapon is straight out of an anime someone posted a while ago. And I do mean "straight out".

- Heavily stylized posing is also very common in anime/manga. All that is missing is the enemy in the background standing still for a moment before falling to the ground, dead. And that specific pose, with one foot up, is very martial-arts.

The weapon is very silly indeed. Do you have a link to the anime picture?

Martial arts? Yes. Agree 100% it's very much a martial arts pose. But that's Asian, rather than Anime, right?

Cheers, -- N