Finer Points of Monster Design

[Vrylakos]

Howdy!

I figured I'd post a thread here to get some discussion going on subjects I'm interested in.

I've done 11 monsters for Atlas Games' Penumbra Bestiary. They posted one of my critters, the dracotick, on the "ANOTHER monster book?" thread in the main forum.

Here's my question: in getting the hang of designing monsters, what minor rules, or hidden info did you uncover that you now keep in your 'd20 Rules Arsenal'. I've picked up many, but missed the Climb speed skill bonus, as Scott pointed out.

I myself was interested to find the Ooze extra HP rule and the Swim speed skill bonus.

On a related note, many monsters break the rules here and there. Some have too many feats, other mess with suggested damage by size, etc. Now, when a 'big name' author does this, I think 'Oh, look how he breaks the rules to get the effect he wants! Bravo!'. When is see non-big name authors do this, I think "Hm, what the heck is *he* doing?"

I myself try to note any changes from base creature guidelines in my monster descriptions. So, if the Maggot Savant is a maggot with intelligence that consumes Skill Ranks from the brains of the dead, well, I might make him a magical beast instead of a vermin. Or make him a vermin but note the special exceptions I've made to the rules.

How do other folks handle this? I like to see the rules as guidelines, not straitjackets. I'm all for creative monsters, as long as people know *when* to break the rules. It's sort of similar to being a fine artist (my original major): you learn rules of composition, but when you're familiar with them, you can break them and still make it work.

Vrylakos/Darren

 

[Grazzt]

On a related note, many monsters break the rules here and there. Some have too many feats, other mess with suggested damage by size, etc. Now, when a 'big name' author does this, I think 'Oh, look how he breaks the rules to get the effect he wants! Bravo!'. When is see non-big name authors do this, I think "Hm, what the heck is *he* doing?"

Ha. Truer words were never spoken.

Here's a funny story relating to this...well sorta. About a year ago (or thereabouts) a certain site's message boards (we won't say which site, but it rhymes with Nazi, Snotzi, Yahtzee, etc. ) posted a rant about the Creature Catalog saying how the monsters sucked, how they had typos and errors, etc., etc.

Well- a friend of mine was kind enough to point this out. The thread dealt with the Firbolg (I think) and the argument was over its Int score. I posted in the thread, and eventually even an employee of said company posted and said the monster in question wasn't official, wasn't done very well, and the site in general wasn't really that good.

So- being the bastard I am I came back here, posted a link to that thread and let "my boys" here tear them up (thanks to Nightfall, Col Hardisson, and everyone else involved).

And what's funny about it is this:

#1 the employee apologized on the boards when I pointed out errors in the MM AND pointed out that the method I used to convert the monster in question WAS THE SAME one said company used to convert some of their stuff from 1e/2e to 3e.

#2 She sent me an email apologizing as well.

#3 A few months later I got a request from that company to use the Modrons in one of their Web Enhancements.

So- what was the point of this? There really wasn't one. Other than the fact that I can relate to what you are saying. Had I been a "named" person that everyone knew and whatever none of that would've ever happened.

But- I did learn something. That the peeps on this board are a helluva lot nicer, friendlier, and overall a better class of person than the ones on "that other board."

 

[Grazzt]

Something else that goes along with what you mentioned, V, about monsters breaking the rules. If you notice, a lot of the Vermin in the MM have feats (or a single feat...usually Weapon Finesse). Well, this technically goes against the rules, and I even asked about it quite a while ago and was told that the designers did it that way and to just consider it a "racial bonus" or bonus feat for the monster.

That's fine with me, except all other racial bonuses or bonus feats are listed inline with the monster (like the marilith for example).

WotC actually tells ya in Dragon 276 that you can break the rules by giving monsters racial bonuses (to skills, but the same applies to feats I guess). That isnt the exact wording per se, but that is the general idea.

 

[Grazzt]

I myself was interested to find the Ooze extra HP rule and the Swim speed skill bonus.

I was most intrigued to find out that the Hide skill was modified by size. I mean it makes sense, but I had converted God knows how many monsters before this was pointed out to me. Needless to say, I spent many days going back through about 200 monsters on the site (at that time) and correcting the ones that were wrong.

Something I just learned recently....few months ago, Tiny and Small creatures DO NOT suffer a size penalty to grapple checks if they have the Improved Grab special attack.

Normally your grapple bonus is modified by your Size, but monsters with Improved Grab (the Small and Tiny ones) do NOT suffer the Size penalty (page 9, MM).

 

[the Jester]

Here's my question: in getting the hang of designing monsters, what minor rules, or hidden info did you uncover that you now keep in your 'd20 Rules Arsenal'. I've picked up many, but missed the Climb speed skill bonus, as Scott pointed out.

I myself was interested to find the Ooze extra HP rule and the Swim speed skill bonus.

On a related note, many monsters break the rules here and there. Some have too many feats, other mess with suggested damage by size, etc. Now, when a 'big name' author does this, I think 'Oh, look how he breaks the rules to get the effect he wants! Bravo!'. When is see non-big name authors do this, I think "Hm, what the heck is *he* doing?"

I myself try to note any changes from base creature guidelines in my monster descriptions. So, if the Maggot Savant is a maggot with intelligence that consumes Skill Ranks from the brains of the dead, well, I might make him a magical beast instead of a vermin. Or make him a vermin but note the special exceptions I've made to the rules.

How do other folks handle this? I like to see the rules as guidelines, not straitjackets. I'm all for creative monsters, as long as people know *when* to break the rules. It's sort of similar to being a fine artist (my original major): you learn rules of composition, but when you're familiar with them, you can break them and still make it work.

Vrylakos/Darren

One thing I learned in my A.P. English classes in HS- if it works, use it.

I think pointing out the bonuses you give it is a very good policy, one that the MM doesn't entirely follow (especially, as Scott pointed out, with vermin- and animals- that have a feat).

I recall someone posting a mithral golem here and folks saying, "Hey, he does too much damage for a construct of his size!" Well, so does an iron golem. Yep, the rules are broken when need be. I do it too, but if I do it by accident I like to have it pointed out so I can either change my mistake or note that it's an exception.

One thing I'd say about the maggot savant (is that a real creature or hypothetical, btw?) is that it sounds like a magical beast to me from the get-go; not due to its having an intelligence, but due to its ability to consume skills. That sounds like a magical ability (Su, prolly). But I sympathize with your dilemma there; I posted a thread about the mustard jelly a while back. My question was, essentially, should it have an intelligence score?

I'm a big fan of precedent. In previous editions of the game, it was described as something with a definite intelligence it had absorbed from a wizard (iirc). Why on earth would it suddenly not have any smarts? (Heh... I almost said brains.) Tada! Exception to the rule- and, as I discovered upon closely reading the ELH, not the first (check out the worm that walks).

So I'm basically in agreement with you: note that it's an exception somewhere in its stat blocks.

About the question of what rules have I picked up in monster design: well, I knew about size modifying Hide checks after my reading of the halfling in the PH (wow, I thought, I'll actually play a halfling sometime now!) I just picked up on the swim and climb speed modifiers a month or so ago while designing an aquatic undead and reading up on swim speeds. I caught the bonus hp for oozes when looking at oozes in the MM and wondering, "Huh? Where's the extra hp come from?" I recently posted a question about feats- in the How To Design a Monster article it says "Int modifier" in the feats line for everything, but it should be "Int bonus"- this changes everything, and I'll definitely have to go back through a lot of my homebrews and fix 'em up.

Hmm, that's all I can think of off-hand...

Thanks for posting here, the CC forums don't get nearly enough traffic!

 

[BOZ]

I myself was interested to find the Ooze extra HP rule and the Swim speed skill bonus.

oh man! can we get a list of these things going? (it's been awhile since i've had a good, new list, HWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)! i rarely remember to put a lot of these "automatics" in, and in fact in many cases i didn't know about them in the first place. yeah, i always get the "size affects AC and attack bonus", although sometimes i forget to figure it in. and the ooze hp rule is easy to remember, since that's one of the big things for oozes. i didn't know about the swim speed thing until about a month ago when scott pointed it out to me (exactly how does it go, now?), and i don't even know how the "hide bonus/penatly by size" thing works at all. what book(s) are these things listed in anyway? and what other ones are out there lurking?

 

[Grazzt]

Re: Re: Finer Points of Monster Design

i didn't know about the swim speed thing until about a month ago when scott pointed it out to me (exactly how does it go, now?), and i don't even know how the "hide bonus/penatly by size" thing works at all. what book(s) are these things listed in anyway? and what other ones are out there lurking?

IF the monster has a Swim speed and the Swim skill it gets a +8 bonus to its skill. Same thing for Climb speed. If it has a Climb speed and the Climb skill, it gets a +8 bonus to its skill.

The Size/Hide mods are listed in the PHB with the Hide skill.

Size mods for Grapple are listed with the grappling rules in the PHB. Remember, a Tiny or Small monster with Improved Grapple doesnt suffer the size penalty to grapple listed on this table.

And don't forget all the synergy bonuses to skills (Handle Animal and Animal Empathy for example).

 

[Grazzt]

Here's another one that peeps seem to forget (me on ocassion as well):

Both the RIDE skill and the PERFORM skill have subtypes (just like Knowledge, Profession, Craft).

HOWEVER, the Perform skill works differently. For each RANK the creature/character has he gains one type of performance. Remember one type of performance per RANK. Remember not to include the ability mod here.

 

[Knight Otu]

The synergy boni are propably a primary contender for the easiest forgotten rule in monster creation. And now we have epic synergy boni to worry about, too!

I usually have no problem with a few tweaked rules (such as bonus feats), and the damage values for creatures of a given size/type/attack routine are simply guidelines, not rules.

OK, the Creature Collection I has some bad mechanical mistakes, but rumor has it that a revision is in the works.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Finer Points of Monster Design

But I sympathize with your dilemma there; I posted a thread about the mustard jelly a while back. My question was, essentially, should it have an intelligence score?

I'm a big fan of precedent. In previous editions of the game, it was described as something with a definite intelligence it had absorbed from a wizard (iirc). Why on earth would it suddenly not have any smarts? (Heh... I almost said brains.)

Well, not all oozy things have to be oozes. The gibbering mouther is an aberration, for example (albeit with the amorphous special which makes it immune to crits and flanking), and the chaos beast is an outsider.