Firearms and ranges

Toj

First Post
Help me out here... but I think there is a problem in the ranges for the firearms.

M16A2 Rifle.... Range increment of 80ft.

What is the bonus you get on firing from prone?

Shooting 500ft would get you a -10 to hit according to the increment penalties.

Marines do this after 1 week of training.
 

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Assume a new marine is a strong3/soldier1 with 14 dex, focused in the M16 with far shot. That would give him +7 to hit.

The target has AC 5 (10-5 for 0 dex) and the range is -8. So, the marine has to roll 13 or better to hit. With a +7 that means a 6 or better on d20. The marine hits the target 75% of the time as a new recruit.

I'm not sure about the to-hit mod for being prone.
 

Beeing prone grants - as far as I know - no to hit modifiers.

If the marine takes a Fullround Action to line up, he gets an additional +5 bonus to attack. (This is from the D&D Player Handbook, Combat Chapter about Striking Objects. Don`t know if the same passage is in the D20 Modern, but I think so)

In the example (3rd strong/ 1st solder, Weapon Focus (appropriate rifle and Far Shot - or maybe even a scope?) this would mean a total attack bonus of +12, modified by -8 from range to +4. Automatic hit except on a rolled 1.

From my own experience with weapons (Military Service at the Luftwaffe) this comes about right - if you`re practicing shooting with rifles, you have all time in the world and really concentrate on aiming.

If the target is just a typical target with Bull`s Eye and everything, it might be even bigger than medium size, so the AC is not 5 but 4...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

First off, I made a mistake..... Marines don't shoot at 500ft, they shoot at 500 yards. After 1 week of 'training' our qualification consists of 200 yards, 300 yards, and then 500 yards. I got 10 out of 10 at that range.

According to the book the M16 doesn't even shoot that far (only 800ft). Also at that range a person would have a -34 to hit.

It's a body target (waist to neck) and there is no scope.

So either Marines are EXTREMELY high level, or there seems to be something wrong. :-)
 
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Bascially, at the ranges that most d20 modern combats take place at, the ranges would be irrelevant if they mirrored real life.

OTOH, what you describe is shooting stationary man-sized targets, which are Defense 5 or so. Also, unless I misunderstand, this also includes time to aim. All these factors figure in, so that a soldier with a passable dexterity, who is about 3rd level, and is aiming, will already have the to hit chance stacked about 8 to 13 points in his favor, to balance the penalty imposed from such a long shot.
 

On the other hand - the rules for weapon ranges and penalties appear in the combat chapter of D20 Modern, don`t they?

I think you need a great stretch of definition to consider targeting practice with an innanimate object in an optimal enviroment without any threats (except the insult of a training officier, maybe :) ) a real combat - so, just accept it.

By they way, thanks to D&D I got a feeling what 800 Feet might be, but since i am used to the metric system (which some stupid countries still try to ignore, and thanks to the resulting communication problem already lost a space probe :) )I still have no idea what 800 yards are :)

Mustrum Ridcully
 

That still doesn't work. In a modern setting there are numerous reasons to shoot at longer distances. Someone is on a tall building etc.

With the rules they way they are now, the weapons are not accurate at very far ranges, which does not mimic reality.

Even at level 4 with weapon focus and a +1 bonus from dex, you still only have an attack roll of +6.

The imobile human sized target has a DC of 5 to hit. At 500 yards you have a -34 to hit.

That means your attack modifer is -28.

And no, you don't have ALL day to aim, you have 60 seconds to shoot 10 shots, which means 1 shot every 6 seconds, or 1 shot every round. I am not sure of the aiming rules but I don't think they will cover the -28 penalty.

I am just surprised at the innaccuracy of the weapons in the book. It took me 10 minutes to look up the maximum effective range of the weapons.
 

1 meter is 3.3 feet.
1 yard is 3 feet.

800 feet, which is the maximum range at which the modern book gives for the M16 would be 242 meters.

The ACTUAL maximum effective range is 550 meters.

The training environment for Rifle qualification is to simulate real danger and real combat.

You start standing up and they say GO!
You then have 60 seconds to get down take aim, and get off 10 shots.

It is basically where you see them enemy, take cover, and begin taking good aimed shots.

It's a simple fix... you either need better aiming rules or need to increase the ranges of the weapons. Most of the pistols are correct by the way.
 

Also note that making an attack roll in the d20 system implies that you are making an attack against someone while explosions are going off around you, while your friends are screaming and dying because some tentacled horror from beyond is eating their legs, while the guy you're aiming at is reading some sort of alien device that you just KNOW is going to haunt your dreams for the rest of your life if it goes off -- in short, while in the middle of combat.

I have no trouble saying that a given character might be able to hit a man-sized target 10 times out of 10 on a practice range. Heck, don't they have drill sergeants screaming in people's ears and other distractions there to try to add a certain level of verisimilitude? Do people still hit 10 times out of 10 the first time bullets start whizzing back from the practice range and making clods of dirt puff up in your face?

What matters for purposes of the game is not so much whether ordinary practice works well in the game -- because the game isn't about ordinary practice -- but whether you can come up with a mechanism to make it work on rare occasions when it might be important. For example, if your hero has to WIN a shooting competition in order to get to the finals, which are held on the island stronghold of the evil supervillain.

In that case, allow bonuses not normally available in d20 Modern, but ONLY for "target practice" purposes. Add synergy bonuses for ranks in Concentration. Allow the player to use a successful full-round Spot Check to convert yards into feet for range purposes (eg, a 500 yard shot is treated as a 500 foot shot). Let the player make an attack roll modified by Wisdom, each round, against AC15 to give himself a cumulative +2 insight bonus to attacks -- and the Dead Aim feat gives you a bonus on those rolls, or makes it +3 instead of +2 each time. And so on -- all kinds of cute things that you can easily rule would NOT work during the chaos, quick action, and frenzied peril of an attack scene.

The only danger would be if someone wanted to use these bonuses for making sniping attacks on unsuspecting living targets (the only real time in which you'd be making an attack roll without it being a combat situation) -- in which case, I'd probably say, "Fine, as long as you're fine with NPCs using the same rules on you."

For ordinary combat, the rules work fine. For extraordinary combat, try to extrapolate as necesary within the basic framework of the system.

-Tacky
 

Toj said:
That still doesn't work. In a modern setting there are numerous reasons to shoot at longer distances. Someone is on a tall building etc.

With the rules they way they are now, the weapons are not accurate at very far ranges, which does not mimic reality.

Even at level 4 with weapon focus and a +1 bonus from dex, you still only have an attack roll of +6.

The imobile human sized target has a DC of 5 to hit. At 500 yards you have a -34 to hit.

That means your attack modifer is -28.

And no, you don't have ALL day to aim, you have 60 seconds to shoot 10 shots, which means 1 shot every 6 seconds, or 1 shot every round. I am not sure of the aiming rules but I don't think they will cover the -28 penalty.

I am just surprised at the innaccuracy of the weapons in the book. It took me 10 minutes to look up the maximum effective range of the weapons.
If you have the farshot feat, then the penalty for 500 yards is -23.
The defense of a Medium sized object is 5.
Take a +5 bonus for a full-round action to attack an inanimate, immobile object (p150).
Say +3 BAB.
+2 to hit from Dex bonus.
+1 to hit from Weapon Focus.

Total = -12 to hit a Defense of 5, or a 17 needed on a D20... you're right, it doesn't seem quite right.
 

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