Firearms and ranges

[Mistwell]

If you use a scope with your gun, you get the ranges you are looking for.

 

[Toj]

Like I said, Marines in basic don't use scopes and I am trying to emulate that.

The problem is a simple fix. You just need to increase the increment of the weapons to what they should actually be.

A M16A2 rifle has a maximum effective range of 550 meters, or 1815ft. Divide that by 10 and you get 181ft.

181 feet should be the range increment for the weapon, not 80ft. This would make a marine firing at 500 yards (or 1500ft) have a -14 penalty.

Then you get the +3 BAB, +1 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +5 for 1 round of aiming for a total hit bonus of +11, or -3 with the penalty. So hitting the object with a DC of 5 happens 12 of out 20 times, or 60%. That's much better.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Feel free to do this...
But I remember a saying of Charles Ryan (not the exact phrase):
"The ranges in the game are not designed by using the highest achieved hitting range ever redocred divided by 10"...

It is more a long the line: "use the standard technical description and subtract some numbers, assuming the technical description describes optimal circumstances not available in a "real" combat... and possibly having the right equipment and feats...

As far as I remember, the optimal combat range for a Heckler & Gock G36 is 200 meters, maximum (effective) is considered 800.
(But the projectile can fly longer, there is just no big chance to hit something and it might not cause the same damage...)
I think it is comparable to the M16 (though it uses a Redpoint Scope - or how this is called - for closer ranges and a scope for longer ranges, which greatly improves hit chances, at least in training), and as far as I remember, none of our training excercises got beyond 800 Meters...

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Toj]

You are not getting what I am saying.

But I remember a saying of Charles Ryan (not the exact phrase): "The ranges in the game are not designed by using the highest achieved hitting range ever redocred divided by 10".

550 meters, which is the maximum effective range, is not the "highest achieved hitting range every recorded", not even close, it's the standard. As it plainly states, 550 meters is the maximum effective range for a point target. The maximum effective range for area targets is 800 meters, and then finally it's maximum range is 3600 meters.

I am sure the highest hitting range every recorded is in excess of 1000 meters, as basic marines hit at 500 meters consistantly.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I still have no idea what 800 yards are

My calculator (or rather the sticker it has on the lid) says:

3 foot = 1 yard (exactly)

1 foot = 30,48cm
1 yard = 91,44cm

1m = 3,2808 ft = 1,0936 yrds

So 800 yards are 731,52 cm.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Remember 4ft3rm4rch!

What is the bonus you get on firing from prone?

In the prone position, you're considered small and get +1 attack and damage, and get +4 to hide. But you can only use the weapons small creatures can use, and your carrying capacity is only 3/4 normal.

 

[lmccauley]

The training environment for Rifle qualification is to simulate real danger and real combat.

You start standing up and they say GO!
You then have 60 seconds to get down take aim, and get off 10 shots.

It is basically where you see them enemy, take cover, and begin taking good aimed shots.

Out of interest, before you get down into a prone position and start firing have you performed any kind of exertion? The reason I ask is that one time at a 100 or 200 yard range (it was about 20 years ago, so my recollection is vague) we had to run about 50 yards to the firing position before getting down into prone and firing at plates. Despite using a bolt action, 7.62mm target rifle (without scope), I didn't hit a single plate before we stopped. This was partly because most other people had semi-auto rifles, but mostly because my chest was still heaving up and down after the run sufficient to affect aim at that distance.

I expect that the combat system is designed for situations where you may have moved about, ran, jumped, dived to the floor, rather than being calm and collected.

If you want to model range shooting, then you could give a bonus for being non-exerted.

I also think it makes sense to gain a bonus for your stance (+1 for kneeling, +2 for prone, maybe)?

As for the feat that gives you a bonus for bracing, well, I really don't see why that needs to be a feat...

Cheers,
Liam

 

[Ranger REG]

Like I said, Marines in basic don't use scopes and I am trying to emulate that.

The problem is a simple fix. You just need to increase the increment of the weapons to what they should actually be.

A M16A2 rifle has a maximum effective range of 550 meters, or 1815ft. Divide that by 10 and you get 181ft.

181 feet should be the range increment for the weapon, not 80ft. This would make a marine firing at 500 yards (or 1500ft) have a -14 penalty.

Shouldn't you divide that by 3, unless you want uber character with Far Shot feat (increase range increment by x1.5) to go beyond the maximum effective range?

BTW, this is based on shooting range or when used during warfare training?

 

[jeffhartsell]

I think Toj is trying to say the M16 is effective at 1800 ft. without any special feats. So, he wants the range inc. to be 180 ft. instead of 80 ft.

That is a fine house rule to me. There is really not much of a point to argue about weapon stats. GMs should feel free to change them has seen fit.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

is it necissary to increase the range of the gun? The real world info on the gun that I have been able to find does say that the Max range is 550 meters, but is most effective at about 200 or less. Ok now some of the mechanics may be off but look at it in game terms. What Battle mat are you going to have that is that big? If you are dealing with those types of ranges the m16a2 is not the best weapon for the job. The gun also has a site/hand carry peice. I don't know how good it is but it does have a siteing mechanism