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Firearms: Yes or No

mmadsen

First Post
To summarize Infantry Missile Weapons in the Renaissance:
  • By 1500 infantrymen had three different missile weapons available to them: the arquebus, the crossbow, and the longbow.
  • The arquebus was inferior to both the other two weapons in range, accuracy, and rate of fire.
  • The arquebus was cheaper than either the longbow, which had to be meticulously handcrafted from yew, and the crossbow, which required equally meticulous workmanship and rather expensive steel as well. The arquebus could be mass-produced by a foundry in fairly cheap cast iron.
  • An arquebusier could carry more ammunition than either of his competitors. Arquebus ammo weighed less than arrows or crossbow bolts, even after adding in the powder charge. Thus, an arquebusier could sustain fire longer than either a crossbowman or a longbowman. And ultimately it was sustained fire that won battles, more than accurate fire.
  • The arquebus ball was superior to arrows as an armor smasher. Rounded, soft lead bullets were less likely to be deflected by the polished curved surface of armor than were arrows.
  • A man required considerably less skill to become an arquebusier than either a crossbowman or a longbowman. A few weeks training was all that was necessary to turn out a fairly capable arquebusier. In contrast, it took years to properly train a the bowman, who had to develop considerable musculature before being able to use his weapon to its fullest capacity. This was particularly true of longbowmen, of whom there was a saying that in order to a good one you had to start with his grandfather.
 

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mmadsen

First Post
Many gamers and sci-fi fans know that gunpowder (blackpowder) is composed of carbon, sulfur, and potassium nitrate, but most don't know what those ingredients are. This excerpt from The Foxfire Book explains what some of these ingredients look like outside a labeled container:
The Foxfire Book said:
Flowers of sulfur is ideal for gun powder, and it can be bought in most drug stores in four-ounce bottles or pound cans.

It can also be found in pure deposits around volcanoes, and in early times, because it was found where molten lava issued from the earth, the sulfur condensed around the rims of the volcanoes was called brimstone.

Today, in certain places around the world, sulfur is recovered from un- derground deposits by pumping live steam underground through pipes. The sulfur melts and, being lighter than water, is easily pumped out at another point close by. Then it is pumped into big ships that haul it to industries all over the world. That's why you can buy a hundred-pound sack for about three dollars in most places.

Saltpeter, the chemical that produces the oxygen for the other ingredients when lit off, can he made by putting urine and manure of any kind in a big cement tank mixed with water until you have about three hundred gallons mixed up. Then you put on a tight lid and let it sit for about ten months. You have to have a drain pipe and valve at the bottom, and a stainless steel filter screen installed beforehand or you'll have one big mess on your hands. At the end of that time, you run the liquid that drains off through ashes into shallow wooden trays lined with plastic sheeting and let them stand for evaporation in the sun. When the water evaporates, potassium nitrate crystals (saltpeter) will form in the bottom of the trays.

In the old days in cities, most outhouses were fitted with trays or drawers under the seats that could be pulled out from behind the building. They had night-soil collectors who were paid so much every month by the outhouse owners to keep those drawers emptied, and they'd come around with a special wagon into which they dumped the contents. When the wagon was full, it was hauled out to where another fellow bought the contents and dumped it into concrete tanks where the bacteria works it just like yeast works wine or bread dough. Then the liquid was run through ashes into shallow tiled or plain concrete evaporating trays or basins to recover the saltpeter.

Today, saltpeter can also he bought in most drug stores in bottles or cans.

Charcoal provides the carbon needed when the powder is lit off. When burning, the carbon assists in making potassium carbonates and carbon sulfates during the one one hundredth of a second that it is burning. Most of this is released at the muzzle of a smoke pole in the form of powder smoke. Some remains in the barrel in the form of fouling and should be swabbed out about every third shot if the shooter wants the round ball to continue to shoot true.

The charcoal should never be made from hardwood as hardwood has too much ash. Such woods as chinaberry, willow, cottonwood, soft pine with no knots, or redwood and Western cedar make the best grade charcoal. A fifty-five-gallon drum with a snap-on lid and a match-stem-sized hole in the lid set over a fire Pit is a good charcoal maker. Take the wood and chip it or cut it into inch chunks and put a bucketful in the drum. Then build a hardwood fire under the drum and when smoke begins to spurt from the vent, light the wood with a match. When the flame goes out, your charcoal is made. Rake the fire out from under the drum, plug the vent with a bit of asbestos fiber or a nail that fits in tight, and let the drum sit overnight to cook. You can then crush and powder the charcoal with a mortar and pestle, or run it through a hand-cranked grain grinder to a flourlike fineness.
 

mmadsen

First Post
Wombat said:
I always find it amusing how people like having the plate armour and other late Medieval/Renaissance trappings, but dislike the gunpowder arms -- the two go hand-in-gauntlet. :D
Even the people of the time disliked gunpowder arms. For a long, long time after their invention, people liked to imagine that they weren't important, and that an armored knight -- or a cuirassier -- could turn the tide of battle with a brave charge.
Wombat said:
My next campaign is set up specifically to have a 16th century feel to it, a New World setting, etc., so there are matchlock gunpowder weapons.
I can't imagine any real-world stories more like D&D adventures than Cortes' conquest of the Aztecs and Pizarro's conquest of the Incas. A handful of guys conquering a pyramid city -- with priests making human sacrifices! -- built on a lake in a dormant volcano?
Wombat said:
Such weapons are finiky, slow to load, not terribly accurate, but they will have a large Critical Threat range.

I have run other games in the past with such weapons. A handful of players will pick up a musket or even a pistol, and they turn into fire-and-forget weapons. Doesn't really impact the flow of the game at all. :)
In game terms, an arquebus isn't much different from a crossbow.
 

Minicol

Adventurer
Supporter
Ibram said:
I'm currious about the availabilty of black powder weapons in peoples games. I know that there are some people out there who allow them, and others who forbid them. But I curious as to how many fall into each camp.

Personaly I've run, and played in, games with and without Firearms and I've never realy seen them as undermining experience.

NO. NO ! NOOOOOOO ! make that NO !

I think that nothing is worse for your suspension of disbelief than firearms. makes you think about the real world while we really don't want to. Very american also, and we aren't.
 

eris404

Explorer
Ibram said:
I'm currious about the availabilty of black powder weapons in peoples games. I know that there are some people out there who allow them, and others who forbid them. But I curious as to how many fall into each camp.

We're sort of in the middle. We take turns running games in our group and some people like it, some people don't. I do play a gun mage/rogue in one group and he has been a great character to play (The gun mage is a core class from the Iron Kingdoms setting). The DM has been very careful about balancing guns and gunpowder with magic, so it doesn't seem to me that my character is overpowered or underpowered at all, just different.
 

Aaron2

Explorer
Stereofm said:
I think that nothing is worse for your suspension of disbelief than firearms. makes you think about the real world while we really don't want to. Very american also, and we aren't.

For me it's the opposite. Gunpowder weapons were around for almost 100 years before the advent of plate armor yet D&D has one and not the other. The D&D equipment list is also full of crap that post-date firearms. Plus, having firearms that are realistically good (i.e. not very) prevents the entire "I invent gunpowder" nonsense that players would try otherwise.

I'm not sure where the "very american" stuff comes from. I'm basing all this on the availability of firearms in Europe. If I was trying to make a game that was very American, I'd have massive cities, hyper-efficient agriculture and no wheels.


Aaron
 

Wombat

First Post
mmadsen said:
I can't imagine any real-world stories more like D&D adventures than Cortes' conquest of the Aztecs and Pizarro's conquest of the Incas. A handful of guys conquering a pyramid city -- with priests making human sacrifices! -- built on a lake in a dormant volcano?

Acutally the campaign (using Monte's AU book) will be pretty similar to this... ;)
 

ledded

Herder of monkies
tetsujin28 said:
Only humans. 'Cause all my games have only humans. And any class can use them, as I made them a simple weapon. They're pretty easy to handle...but watch out for all those modifiers if you're using a matchlock.
Do you mind if I inquire about your firearms rules/stats for matchlocks/flintlocks? Did you homebrew, or use something produced elsewhere?
 

ledded

Herder of monkies
Stereofm said:
NO. NO ! NOOOOOOO ! make that NO !

I think that nothing is worse for your suspension of disbelief than firearms. makes you think about the real world while we really don't want to. Very american also, and we aren't.
:confused: Huh?

Seems like matchlocks and flintlocks were around long before America, but thanks anyway for the nationalistic stereotyping. :)

Seriously, I cant see how they hurt suspension of disbelief in any way more than some some of the really silly magic-in-place-of-firearms rules that are perpetrated out there. Firearms were around in the era of swords and plate armors; as far as fantasy I think that playing King Arthur and his Knights is no more fun than playing Pirates or The Three Musketeers.

Sure, I can understand folks not wanting blackpowder/firearms, and I have been in campaigns for D&D where we expressly forbid it, but if you do the rules correctly they not only blend in quite nicely but enhance the experience by opening up a whole new set of genre characters to emulate and have fun with.

But hey, to each their own and all that.
 

Tzarevitch

First Post
Honestly I think a lot of people are making much ado about nothing with regard to firearms. The game adjusts just fine. I run a steampunk Planescape game with @1900s level technology and magic side-by-side.

I use the following basic stats for my firearms:
Derringer (double barrel) 1d6 x3 10' range
Light Pistol (revolver) 1d8 x3 30' range
Heavy Pistol (revolver) 1d10 x3 50' range
Light Carbine (repeater) 2d6 x3 200' range
Heavy Carbine (repeater) 2d8 x3 250' range
Sharpshooting Rifle 2d12 x4 300' range
Elephant Gun (Double Barrel) 2d12 x3 200' range
Gatling Gun 2d12 x4 200' range
Grenade Launcher (damage per grenade type) 50' minimum range

Obviously gun crits are nasty things.

Shotguns use special rules but they inflict about 2d6 19-20/x2 3d6 if double barrel. Quad barrels inflict 5d6. Ranges for shotguns are very short and damage peters out at about 100'.

Honestly I have found that firearms work just fine alongside of magic. They DO change the way both the DM and the players operate though. Low level opponents are capable of inflicting significant damage at long ranges and long range fire is no longer relegated to spellcasters and wand-users.

Firearms in my game are also no more expensive than swords so farmers and commoners tend to have a shotgun or rifle stored in their houses for self-defense. Obviously the ranged combat feats now come into their own and Quickdraw is a vital feat for everyone to have. Deflect Arrows is also very useful. Heavy melee weaons remain in use primarily for fighters, barbarians and their ilk. Light weapons see little use except for ornamentation or self-defense. Bows remain useful for characters who are strong (and elves). Crossbows are only really used by assassins who want a stealth kill.

As far as classes go, fighters tend to use both firearms and melee weapons and take feats to support both. Most non-fighters don't melee if they can avoid it. Barbarians are kind of stuck. They have to melee if they can because rage doesn't help them with a gun. Most of them use a gun until they get close enough for "real fighting". Most others use pistols or shotguns exclusively and only use a melee weapon for self-defense or in desperation.

As far as opponents go, with a heavy firearms campaign the DM has to use fewer dumb brute animals and use NPCs instead. Creatures can be used but the DM has to be mindful that a batch of PCs with repeating carbines can bring down creatures from a safe range. Don't expect a dumb animal to be a challenge. The DM also has to re-equip weapon using monsters to keep up with the times. (The PCs have yet to run into my marilith gunfighters with 6 pistols and rapid shot. They HAVE run into my gatling gun-equipped golems through.)

Lastly, firearms are not for everyone. Barbarians can use firearms but they aren't at their best with them. Similarly giants and other very high-strength creatures are better with bows or hurled boulders because they can take full advantage of their strength. Except at low levels, arcane spellcasters have enough boom on their own that they don't need firearms (although most carry one in case of emergency).

Common availability of modern firearms has also generated significant other changes in my game. For example, the Bloodwar still rages as always but they fight now with ironclad dreadnoughts that battle for control of the Styx and the other waterways of the lower planes. Zepplelin bombers pass overhead and rain death down from above. The landmasses on the lower planes look like the Western Front in WWI as trenches and machine gun pillboxes litter most of the plane. Both sides breed tieflings and shuffle them off to the front to serve as rifle-infantry as most of the lower order fiends either lack hands, are too small or too stupid to use firearms.

My players and I have found that firearms have added a new layer of fun to our game. I know not everyone agrees but those who don't should try it before they knock it.

Tzarevitch
 

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