Level Up (A5E) Fireball

[Morrus]

Howabout Enlarge/Reduce?

Howabout Enlarge/Reduce?

 

[Garmel]

Any chance we could see Teleport?

 

[Morrus]

Any chance we could see Teleport?

OK, last one for now!

 

[Faolyn]

Is Beshela's enduring bestow curse also a 3rd level spell? Because wow, that's powerful if it is. It should require some important component, at least. Or be able to be removed by remove curse.

 

[Faolyn]

I know I already picked one ages ago, but if I'm allowed a second choice... friends, please.

 

[Garmel]

I like how even with an associated object Teleport can still be tricky and perhaps dangerous depending on the DM, unlike 5e.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm a bit disappointed by the nonrare curse keeping all of the caster specific conditions on top of short duration & concentration (ie +1d8 when you attack/disadvantage on attacks against you) rather than opening up those first level spell effects* to the caster's allies in the third level spell. Given the umber of cantrip & 1st level spell effects present though, that "so long as it is weaker than the options above" bit of different effect should be "similar strength" "comparable power" or similar.

*vicious mockery, hideous laughter, hex

Beshela's enduring bestow curse makes me curious about the remove curse spell & how difficult finding rare spells is expected to be. Unlike @Faolyn though, I don't think that it's really powerful or deserving of some special component to gate the spell behind. That seems more like a good baseline for what a single target 3rd level spell with a collection of cantrip to first level spell effects should grant.


Curse still falls into a lot of the same overcorrection from earlier editions when viewed with all the estrings in aggregate. Any one string over thepre-5e versions of curse might have been good & reasonable, but all of them combined ensure that it's basically a spell players will never consider. The o5e version has much the same trouble though.

• Casters don't really have the free known/prepped slot budget to not look at their spell choices with the highly critical eye of a mercenary mathematician, so that broad concern & the spell is too general to get a pass as some kind of free class feature. Those combined shape & color almost all of the ways the spell's individual components can get rated
  • Damage. As a third level spell bestow curse is up against some pretty big boots. With bestow curse dealing +1d8 from attacks made specifically by the caster it could theoretically deal 10d8(avg45 over 10 rounds) if an opponent & concentration were to both last 10 rounds We already know the 6d6(avg 6*3.5=21) 120ft range 20ft radius fireball on the arcane/fire sorcerer/wizard side of the fence. On the o5e cleric side spirit guardians is a ten minute concentration spell that deals 3d8(avg13.5/round or theoretical 135 over ten rounds). Bard is a more difficult comparison, but both of those snuff the feeble damage candle bestow curse might have to justify being used.
    • ★If it was +1d8 whenever the target is damaged by anyone as some kind of short lived more versatile hex it might be great, but it's not.
  • Target makes attack rolls against you at disadvantage. This sounds impressive & all, but anyone casting a one minute single target concentration spell is probably not going to be doing it hoping the target doesn't hit them. On a math level disadvantage works out to roughly -5 on the attack roll, conveniently a first level shield spell will give +5ac as a reaction against all attacks from all attackers until the start of the caster's next turn. A caster could quibble over if 10 rounds disadvantage from one target vrs 1 round +5 vrs all attackers, but at the end of the day it's impossible to ignore the benefit of shield's reaction cast over bestow curse's proactive action cast & the 1st vrs 3rd level spell slot so this is probably another loss for bestow curse.
    • ★If bestow curse let the caster move it around it around like hex & moonbeam that would change the math dramatically & maybe even make it into a keystone component to debuff focused builds... But concentration conflicts with nearly every buff/debuff including web & the curse effects are already a bit unimpressive. Vicious mockery is a cantrip that gives disadvantage on the next attack against anyone without using concentration, jumping to a third level spell should probaby do better.
  • Choose an ability score to impose disadvantage on checks... The short duration ensures this is pretty much only going to be useful in a fight where checks are going to be few & far between so the first half is almost beneath the level of being worth giving much thought to that same effect in hex.
    ..and saves. This could be big, but again it's a 3rd level spell slot with a single target short duration concentration effect to give disadvantage on the save from some other leveled spell. Even if the spell gave a save every round it needs to verge into plot level macguffin type effects for this to be a serious consideration & there just are not that many spells that rise to that level.
    • ★if it were permanent until cured or an effect the caster could move around these might be serious factor to consider, but on a short duration concentration spell not so much.
  • Make a wisdom save or lose an action. This is the first good effect in curse, but for any opponent without a raged attack being webbed over there is effectively the same & the first level spell hideous laughter is likewise about the same one minute concentration result
• ★"at the narrator's discretion you may create a different curse effect with this spell so long as it is weaker than the options above". This has the potential to be a huge plot of fertile ground if used creatively with the blessing of a permissive gm, but salts the earth there before the gm even comes into the picture by using the words "so long as it is weaker than the options above" rather than "of similar strength" or something. With almost all of "the options above" already being pretty weak there is not much room for customized curses given the short duration. Weaker than means that the caster can't even take the +d8 & disadvantage that applies between caster & target & apply it to a different PC in the group or just one of them but to all PCs in the group while dropping some of the other effects

 

[Faolyn]

Beshela's enduring bestow curse makes me curious about the remove curse spell & how difficult finding rare spells is expected to be. Unlike @Faolyn though, I don't think that it's really powerful or deserving of some special component to gate the spell behind. That seems more like a good baseline for what a single target 3rd level spell with a collection of cantrip to first level spell effects should grant.

It's permanent, doesn't require concentration, can't be dispelled, and can only be removed by completing a very specific action which the target likely doesn't know about. That's hella powerful for 3rd level.

 

[tetrasodium]

It's permanent, doesn't require concentration, can't be dispelled, and can only be removed by completing a very specific action which the target likely doesn't know about. That's hella powerful for 3rd level.

Any first level PC can leave a scar or a maimed limb on someone they let live... It's just as permanent as a scar or maimed limb while being just as annoying & frustrating as that scar or maimed limb to the target not debilitating like feeblemind. If it lasts more than the encounter & the target shows up again that means you have a reoccurring villain with a reason to have a grudge & it doesn't say that it's impossible to cure trough other means or that the target will have difficulty discovering what they need to do.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Any first level PC can leave a scar or a maimed limb on someone they let live... It's just as permanent as a scar or maimed limb while being just as annoying & frustrating as that scar or maimed limb to the target not debilitating like feeblemind. If it lasts more than the encounter & the target shows up again that means you have a reoccurring villain with a reason to have a grudge & it doesn't say that it's impossible to cure trough other means or that the target will have difficulty discovering what they need to do.

Yeah, it seems like it would be a lot scarier if it were used against the PCs. Most people PCs meets in combat end up dead after all. A weapon to torment the players is probably the purpose of the rare version.