Firing into a Antil magic shell

[Camarath]

From SRD
"Attack (ranged) [Standard][AoO: Yes]
Description: The character attacks an opponent in line of sight to the character, within range of the ranged weapon being used. A target is in line of sight if no obstructions between the character and the target grant 100% cover. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments, for projectile weapons it is ten range increments. The attack roll is:
d20 + Attack modifiers vs. AC of target
Attack modifiers consist of the character's base attack bonus, size adjustment, dexterity adjustment, and any other bonuses that apply to the attack roll. Each range increment of distance between the character and the target after the first will impose a penalty, per the weapon description."

"Damage Rolls
If the attack roll result equals or exceeds the target's AC, the attack is successful, and the attacker deals damage to the defender. Roll the appropriate damage for the attacker's weapon. The damage is deducted from the target character's current hit points."


This indcates that you roll your attack then after you know if you have succeded or not you roll you damage, thus these rolls are made at different times. Also a monk's Deflect Arrows works after a successful attack roll but before the monk is hit by the arrow.


Also From SRD
"Antimagic Field
Abjuration
Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on the character
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: See text
An invisible barrier surrounds the character and moves with the character. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
Golems and other magical constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their supernatural, spell-like, and spell abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below.
Summoned or conjured creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that's maintaining the creature. If the character casts antimagic field in an area occupied by a conjured creature who has spell resistance, the character must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature's SR to make it wink out.
Normal creatures can enter the area, as can normal missiles. The spell has no effect on constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Undead and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures' spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.
Dispel magic does not remove the field. Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and creatures of demigod or higher status are unaffected.
Note: Should the character be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of the character's person that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."


Things within the antimagic field are suppersed. Since the attack happens outside the antimagic field and before the arrow enters the field you gain the bonuses to attack. Since you roll damage after the arrow is suppressed within the antimagic field you gain no bonus to damage.

 

[Pax]

/me takes out nerf sword.

*whap, whap, BONK*

I dub thee Sir Camaranth, Knight of the Unholy Order of Munchkins, Fellow of the Society of Incessant Nitpickers, and full member of the Order of Excessive Hair-Splitting, First Class!

/me puts nerf sword away, pops a DUNCE cap on Camaranth's head, and walks away laughing ...

 

[Camarath]

But you still have a magic bow when you roll your damage. Do you assert that you should add the bow's enhancement to damage but not the arrow's?

-Hyp.

No, I think that the bow's Enhancament bonus to damage is bestowed upon the projectile like other weapon special abilities so it would be supperesed by the antimagic field.

 

[Camarath]

One action. One set of circumstances. Either the arrow is magical, or it is not, for that action, in that set of circumstances. You don't get to go half-and-half.

One Action, two parts, other actions have multiple parts such as Disarm, Grapple, and Trip. The Attack Action has 2 parts the roll to hit and then the roll to damage. There are also two diferent sets of circumstances inside and outside the Antimagic field. One part of the action occurs outside and the other inside.

However, when a question not previously addressed by rules which model a real-world situation comes up ... the best thing to do is go back to the real-world situation you're modelling, and answer the question from there.

The fundamentals of real world armor and physics are at odds with the way armor works in D&D, so you real world magical weapons might not work the same way against armor as D&D weapons do. Also I think you are greatly reading into the rules and creating nonexistent game mechanics to fit your rationalization of how magic works.

An attack with a bow is one action, not two. You either get the arrow bonus to the whole action, or to none of it.

There are two rolls, thus two applications of the bonus since these are not simultaneous it is possible for the bonus to change between them.

Penetration woudl have to occur at the target; accuracy could occur before the target, at the target, or both.

Penetration of Armor is not a D20 game mechanic it is a nonmechanical construction your are attempting to impose on the rules.

"At the target" is an antimagic field, wherein magical benefits no longer apply. Ergo ... the arrow benefits don't apply ... especially if any or all of the benefit to hit is based on enhanced armor penetration.

Only the damage occurs at the target your attack occurs in your own square.

The bonus to damage is from the same (single) enhancement bonus as teh bonus to hit. Either that bonus functions all the way, or, not at all..

The bonus has two functions to hit and to damage these are not the same thing and do not apply to the same roll. The to hit portion acts normaly becuase it does not apply inside the field. True Strike would not be suppersed if you cast it on your self and then fire into an antimagic field you would still get your bonus to attack. The is no mechanical differance between an insight bonus to hit and an enhancement bonus to hit. The mechanic works exactly the same. There maybe different explanation as to why you get a bonus but the bonus functions in exactly the same the same way.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am just trying to have my rules and play by them too.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Camarath, I think you're wrong. Others have done a bang-up job of explaining why. So this post is really just to lend the added weight of another DM to their words.

Magic doesn't work in an Anti-magic Field. No magical arrow bonuses apply.

 

[Camarath]

Pendragon, I realy do not understand why a bonus to attack from a weapon that is not suppressed at the start of your attack would not be added to you attack roll. I do not see the difference between this and other items or spells that give you a bonus to attack. The sequence of events as I see them during your ranged attack go like this.
1) you roll your attack nothing at this point is suppressed
2) your arrows travels from your bow to the traget and at some point enters the Antimagic field
3) your arrow hits the traget is you succeeded in your attack roll and you roll for damage

Am I wrong in this chronology? If I am then my resoning is flawed but if I am not then I don't see how a future event such as entering the antimagic field affects a current roll. I would realy like an explaination that is not based on "Armor Penetration" since I can not find any reference to that concept in the rules. I do not mean to be beligerant but I realy do think this is a proper interpretation of the rules. I understand peoples meta-game objections but their in-game objections don't make sense to me.

 

[Camarath]

The rules say absolutely nothing about the times those separate bonuses are applied. To say that "to hit" is applied as the arrow leaves the bow and "to damage" as it hits the target is pure speculation on your part.

Perhaps the "to hit" bonus comes into play because the arrow homes in on the target all along its path, perhaps it veers towards chinks in the armor... Same with the bonus to damage, for all the rules mention it, the enhancement might give the arrow extra speed as it leaves the bow, not because of some magical effect as it strikes the target.

You're assuming certain things for which you have no rule support, and ingoring the simplest explanation, which we have rules for - magical weapons don't work in an antimagic field...

mmu1 I did not see this post untill now. Thank you for trying to actualy trying to answer my augment with rule based logic. I was trying to construct a time line of events based on the order in which one rolls things. But I might need to look ranged attacks as an extend form of dynamic melee attack rather then an aim, fire, travel, and hit proccess. I would not think that a melee weapon used on the border of an antimagic field would give a bonus to hit. So if I look at it that way I guess it works. But it still seems dubious to me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, I think that the bow's Enhancament bonus to damage is bestowed upon the projectile like other weapon special abilities so it would be supperesed by the antimagic field.

But there isn't an Enhancement bonus to damage. There's an enhancement bonus, that applies to attack and damage rolls.

Either that enhancement bonus is bestowed upon the arrow - in which case the arrow has a magical +X bonus to attack and damage rolls - or it isn't, in which case it's based on the bow.

So either the bow's enhancement bonus - outside the field - is applied to both attack and damage rolls on arrows shot into the field... or the bow's enhancement bonus - bestowed upon the arrow - is negated by the field and applies to neither.

You can't split it up, because it's not two different bonuses.

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

So Hypersmurf I am using my Boots of Striding and Springing and I take my move action into an antimagic field. When I enter I have moved 10 ft farther than my normal movement. What happens, does the bonus to my speed remain untill the end of my action, does the bonus cease because I entered an area where the bonus is suppressed or am I unable to use my bonus speed at all because the antimagic field will suppress the bonus when I get there? I believe that the bonus ends when you enter the Antimagic field but that does not prevent you form using the bonus wile outside the field. I have not meant to say that there are two seperate bonuses but that there are two seperate effects of the same bonus that are applied at different times. I think that circumstances can change during an action that effect how one can use one's bonuses.

Where is the attack action preformed when you make a ranged attack? I think that it is performed outside the antimagic field in your own Square. And, I think the damage occurs at your traget inside the antimagic field . And, in my opinion the bonus you add to each of those calculations is dependent upon where it takes place and what bonuses can be appied or are suppressed at that location.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have not meant to say that there are two seperate bonuses but that there are two seperate effects of the same bonus that are applied at different times. I think that circumstances can change during an action that effect how one can use one's bonuses.

Example - Bull's Strength and a Mighty bow. The Enhancement bonus to Strength is outside the AM Field. Does the consequent bonus to damage apply to the arrow?

Cat's Grace. The Enhancement bonus to Dexterity is outside the AM Field. Does the consequent bonus to the attack roll apply to the arrow?

We know that the enhancement bonus of the bow isn't actually "transferred" to the arrow - otherwise it would allow you to bypass DR. Shouldn't the bow's bonus to damage, then, be more like a Bull's Strength on the wielder than a Greater Magic Weapon on the arrow?

-Hyp.