I am a deepwood sniper and i have the feat Precise shot. We have 2 minataurs in our our group and i tend to have shoot past these. Now the precise shot takes away the minus 4 for shooting into melee but our DM insists that because the minataurs are big the oppenents i target get cover from my allies. Is this true or am i being blagged. Page 124 of the PH mentions these rules but the DM insists that these are for medium and large but no rules are these for 2 large allies on the way if they are attacking 1 target and i target the same one too. Can anyone flesh out this little problem please. Much appreciated.
Firing into melee
- Thread starter Anditch
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
There are two related penalties here:
1) Firing into melee: if you're shooting at an opponent who is 5' away from a friend, then you get a -4 on your shot. Precise shot can get rid of this penalty.
2) Firing at someone behind cover: if you're shooting an opponent behind cover, they do get the benefit of the cover (unless you have a class ability that gets rid of cover benefits). Living creatures, whether friend or foe, can provide your target with cover.
Unfortunately, your DM is correct in this case.
Daniel
1) Firing into melee: if you're shooting at an opponent who is 5' away from a friend, then you get a -4 on your shot. Precise shot can get rid of this penalty.
2) Firing at someone behind cover: if you're shooting an opponent behind cover, they do get the benefit of the cover (unless you have a class ability that gets rid of cover benefits). Living creatures, whether friend or foe, can provide your target with cover.
Unfortunately, your DM is correct in this case.
Daniel
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
To make matters worse, if you're firing at a medium-sized opponent behind a large ally, I'd give the opponent 3/4 cover, not 1/2 cover. They'd get a +7 to their AC, and if you rolled between 1 and 7 less than you needed to roll to hit the opponent, you instead hit your ally.
Do this a few times, though, and maybe the minotaurs will attack the opponents from the side instead of head-on
.
Daniel
Do this a few times, though, and maybe the minotaurs will attack the opponents from the side instead of head-on
.Daniel
Generally, unless you are doing corredor fighting, you can move so as to get an unobstructed line of sight to at least ONE monster. May not be the same one or the one you would prefer to shoot, but you can shoot something.
Other alternatives would be various mobility enhancers. Slippers of spider climb leave your hands free for the bow. Flying items would let you get above the minotaurs.
Finally, if they have any brains they will leave you an open lane of fire. Don't forget you only need like a 5' wide path unobstructed and anyone passing through it could potentially draw AoOs from the minotaurs. Of course this also means YOU have some potential exposure to attack.
Other alternatives would be various mobility enhancers. Slippers of spider climb leave your hands free for the bow. Flying items would let you get above the minotaurs.
Finally, if they have any brains they will leave you an open lane of fire. Don't forget you only need like a 5' wide path unobstructed and anyone passing through it could potentially draw AoOs from the minotaurs. Of course this also means YOU have some potential exposure to attack.
Grishnak
First Post
Being 1 of the said minotaurs playing as a frenzied berzerker and with low int you can forget the 'had any brains bit' as my char wouldn't give a damn about pointy sticks being used when there is an enemy infront of me. As for the firing into melee I read the rules up and yes there is cover gained by 2 large creatures and our DM rules it as 3/4 cover vs medium creatures and 1/2 for large etc.
Hackenslash
First Post
Sorry Dude...but the DM is right in this case !
Anditch - I would agree with Pielorinho on this and the DM has obviously read the rules about cover and has ruled accordingly. But if you play certain characters with certain cool abilites then sometimes they are not always going to be usefull and/or successfull in all situations. Maybe you could try out manouvering the Minotaurs and gaining a better line of sight. see ya soon dude !!! ZAL.
Anditch - I would agree with Pielorinho on this and the DM has obviously read the rules about cover and has ruled accordingly. But if you play certain characters with certain cool abilites then sometimes they are not always going to be usefull and/or successfull in all situations. Maybe you could try out manouvering the Minotaurs and gaining a better line of sight. see ya soon dude !!! ZAL.
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As an interesting side note, another WotC d20 game (Wheel of Time) includes a clear diagram involving "firing into melee" and "firing through an ally into melee". The ally does indeed provide cover in addition to the usual melee penalty (1/2 cover for a medium sized ally vs medium-sized foe).
That's how I run it in my games. I believe your DM has ruled correctly.
As people have stated, there are ways to cut down on these penalties. Precise Shot eliminates the melee penalty. Sharpshooter reduces the cover penalty. Some PRCs also have perks that help improve the shot. IIRC, the ELH has feats and weapon abilities that render all cover and concealment moot.
That's how I run it in my games. I believe your DM has ruled correctly.
As people have stated, there are ways to cut down on these penalties. Precise Shot eliminates the melee penalty. Sharpshooter reduces the cover penalty. Some PRCs also have perks that help improve the shot. IIRC, the ELH has feats and weapon abilities that render all cover and concealment moot.
Olive
Explorer
This was areally good explanation from these boards ages ago, and i didn't write down who wrote it, so i'm a bad man. but it wasn't me!
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Firing in to Melee explained in detail:
There are two primary factors that come into play when you are shooting at someone who is in melee with an ally of yours: The modifier to your attack roll (for firing into melee) and the modifier to your target's AC (if an ally is providing cover for the target).
These two modifiers are separate, as it is possible for an ally of yours to be providing cover to your target even if they aren't in melee with them, and it's possible for an ally to be in melee with your target without
providing any cover for them.
The -4 penalty to your attack roll is because you have to aim more carefully to avoid hitting your ally.
If your target is at least 10 feet away from you ally (such as when you are fighting a creature with Reach), then you avoid the -4 attack penalty. (See Players Handbook, page 124)
If you have the Precise Shot feat, then you negate the penalty altogether. (See Players Handbook, page 84)
The Cover modifier to your targets AC only comes into play if one of your allies is between you and your target (or the part of your target you are aiming at if they take up more than one square).
If you draw a line from the center of your square to the center of your target's square, and it passes through the square an ally is in, then they are providing Cover to the target.
The amount of cover depends on the relative sizes of your ally and the target (See page 133 of the Players Handbook, Table 8-9: Cover):
If your ally is two size categories (or more) smaller than the target: No cover, +0 to target's AC.
If your ally is one size category smaller than the target: 1/4 cover, +2 to target's AC.
If your ally and the target are in the same size category: 1/2 cover, +4 to target's AC.
If your ally is one size category larger than the target: 3/4 cover, +7 to target's AC.
If your ally is two size categories larger than the target: 9/10 cover, +10 to target's AC.
If your ally is three size categories larger than the target: Total Cover, you can't even see the target.
If the target has a Tower Shield, the shield spell, or is hiding behind a wall, then they may already have an AC bonus from cover. Only use the highest AC modifier from cover, do not add them together.
If you have the Sharp-shooting feat from the Sword and Fist (page 9), then you get a +2 bonus on attack rolls when your target has an AC bonus from cover.
If your ally is providing cover to your target, it is possible to miss the target and hit your ally instead. It is also possible for a nimble ally to dodge out of the way at the last moment and not actually provide any cover to the target at all. (See Players Handbook, page 133.) To see if this happens, follow these steps:
1. Make your attack roll as normal, and check it against the targets' AC (including the cover bonus). If you exceed their total AC, then you hit them despite the cover.
2. If you miss them because of the cover bonus to AC your ally provided, then compare your attack roll with the your ally's flat-footed AC (even if they have Uncanny Dodge).
Their flat-footed AC is their normal AC, minus any AC bonus from Dexterity or from Dodge bonuses. Always use the original attack roll; do not roll the attack again.
If your attack roll is below your ally's flat-footed AC, then your shot hit them but did not penetrate their armor. No damage is dealt.
If your attack roll is above your ally's flat-footed AC, then you either hit your ally or they dodge the attack at the last moment. Now compare the attack roll to your ally's full AC.
If you miss your ally because of the additional AC from their Dexterity or Dodge bonuses, then they sidestepped the shot, and it continues on to hit the original target.
If you hit your ally even with the additional AC from their Dexterity or Dodge bonuses, then they were not able to get out of the way, and the attack penetrated their armor. They take the damage.
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Firing in to Melee explained in detail:
There are two primary factors that come into play when you are shooting at someone who is in melee with an ally of yours: The modifier to your attack roll (for firing into melee) and the modifier to your target's AC (if an ally is providing cover for the target).
These two modifiers are separate, as it is possible for an ally of yours to be providing cover to your target even if they aren't in melee with them, and it's possible for an ally to be in melee with your target without
providing any cover for them.
The -4 penalty to your attack roll is because you have to aim more carefully to avoid hitting your ally.
If your target is at least 10 feet away from you ally (such as when you are fighting a creature with Reach), then you avoid the -4 attack penalty. (See Players Handbook, page 124)
If you have the Precise Shot feat, then you negate the penalty altogether. (See Players Handbook, page 84)
The Cover modifier to your targets AC only comes into play if one of your allies is between you and your target (or the part of your target you are aiming at if they take up more than one square).
If you draw a line from the center of your square to the center of your target's square, and it passes through the square an ally is in, then they are providing Cover to the target.
The amount of cover depends on the relative sizes of your ally and the target (See page 133 of the Players Handbook, Table 8-9: Cover):
If your ally is two size categories (or more) smaller than the target: No cover, +0 to target's AC.
If your ally is one size category smaller than the target: 1/4 cover, +2 to target's AC.
If your ally and the target are in the same size category: 1/2 cover, +4 to target's AC.
If your ally is one size category larger than the target: 3/4 cover, +7 to target's AC.
If your ally is two size categories larger than the target: 9/10 cover, +10 to target's AC.
If your ally is three size categories larger than the target: Total Cover, you can't even see the target.
If the target has a Tower Shield, the shield spell, or is hiding behind a wall, then they may already have an AC bonus from cover. Only use the highest AC modifier from cover, do not add them together.
If you have the Sharp-shooting feat from the Sword and Fist (page 9), then you get a +2 bonus on attack rolls when your target has an AC bonus from cover.
If your ally is providing cover to your target, it is possible to miss the target and hit your ally instead. It is also possible for a nimble ally to dodge out of the way at the last moment and not actually provide any cover to the target at all. (See Players Handbook, page 133.) To see if this happens, follow these steps:
1. Make your attack roll as normal, and check it against the targets' AC (including the cover bonus). If you exceed their total AC, then you hit them despite the cover.
2. If you miss them because of the cover bonus to AC your ally provided, then compare your attack roll with the your ally's flat-footed AC (even if they have Uncanny Dodge).
Their flat-footed AC is their normal AC, minus any AC bonus from Dexterity or from Dodge bonuses. Always use the original attack roll; do not roll the attack again.
If your attack roll is below your ally's flat-footed AC, then your shot hit them but did not penetrate their armor. No damage is dealt.
If your attack roll is above your ally's flat-footed AC, then you either hit your ally or they dodge the attack at the last moment. Now compare the attack roll to your ally's full AC.
If you miss your ally because of the additional AC from their Dexterity or Dodge bonuses, then they sidestepped the shot, and it continues on to hit the original target.
If you hit your ally even with the additional AC from their Dexterity or Dodge bonuses, then they were not able to get out of the way, and the attack penetrated their armor. They take the damage.
Norfleet
First Post
The big question of firing into a melee ties hand in hand with this one:
What are the rules for firing indiscriminately into a crowd or melee?
Suppose there are three orcs from two different tribes are fighting. We'll call them A and B. You, a third party, fire indiscriminately into the melee, aiming at a Tribe A orc, mostly because there are more of them. You don't really care which one you hit, however.
Do you still suffer a -4 penalty to hit? What happens if you miss because of that -4? Do you hit one of the other orcs instead?
What if there's an entire teeming mass of orcs, and you fire indiscriminately into the crowd? Surely SOMEBODY will get hit, as that's one of the known upsides of what we refer to as a "target rich environment". If the orcs are armored, a miss could indicate striking an orc but being deflected by armor, but what if the orcs are unarmored, and therefore have no ability to cause deflections? If you "miss" an orc, the stray projectile would simply hit somebody else.
Unfortunately, while there are rules for firing discriminately into a melee, there don't seem to be any rules for firing indiscriminately into a melee or crowd.
What are the rules for firing indiscriminately into a crowd or melee?
Suppose there are three orcs from two different tribes are fighting. We'll call them A and B. You, a third party, fire indiscriminately into the melee, aiming at a Tribe A orc, mostly because there are more of them. You don't really care which one you hit, however.
Do you still suffer a -4 penalty to hit? What happens if you miss because of that -4? Do you hit one of the other orcs instead?
What if there's an entire teeming mass of orcs, and you fire indiscriminately into the crowd? Surely SOMEBODY will get hit, as that's one of the known upsides of what we refer to as a "target rich environment". If the orcs are armored, a miss could indicate striking an orc but being deflected by armor, but what if the orcs are unarmored, and therefore have no ability to cause deflections? If you "miss" an orc, the stray projectile would simply hit somebody else.
Unfortunately, while there are rules for firing discriminately into a melee, there don't seem to be any rules for firing indiscriminately into a melee or crowd.
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