D&D 5E First experience using the speed factor initiative variant

[lumenbeing]

At my table, the rule is that action declarations happen in order of intelligence, lowest first. In practice this means that everyone takes a minute to decide their action for next round, and anyone who's interested asks the guys with lower intelligence what they're doing. E.g. the guy with Int 14 says, "Max [that's me], what are the skeletons doing this round?" "They're shooting at you." "Oh, I guess I dodge then and duck out of sight."

I had to read this a couple times to understand why you would do that, but I get your reasoning, and it actually sounds kind of cool.

The way I run Dodging is that it starts at the beginning of the round and lasts for the whole round. Spell durations treat the whole round as one big turn, so a spell which lasts "until the end of your next turn" is guaranteed to last for all of next round, and it may also work for part of this round if you rolled well on your initiative and got it off quickly.

Hmm, not sure I understand this though. Seems like it defies initiative. Can you explain your reasoning for doing it that way?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I had to read this a couple times to understand why you would do that, but I get your reasoning, and it actually sounds kind of cool.

Hmm, not sure I understand this though. Seems like it defies initiative. Can you explain your reasoning for doing it that way?

I assume you're asking about Dodge and not spell durations, right? From a fiction perspective, dodging is a continuous activity not a discrete event that happens at a particular point in the round. From a mechanical perspective I found it displeasing that dodging did nothing if you rolled lower initiative than your attacker that round.

 

[Uller]

I assume you're asking about Dodge and not spell durations, right? From a fiction perspective, dodging is a continuous activity not a discrete event that happens at a particular point in the round. From a mechanical perspective I found it displeasing that dodging did nothing if you rolled lower initiative than your attacker that round.

That sounds reasonable. I've been trying to encourage my monk player to use patient defense more because she keeps focusing on making multiple attacks and then getting beat down. She seems to be learning that PD can help her become the secondary tank once the paladin's hp tank is running low.

So how do you work it with bonus actions? Could she spend her bonus action at declare time?

We had been letting folks not declare their bonus actions to save some flexibility. But I guess if ypu must declare them at the beginning of the round it's not an issue.

 

[lumenbeing]

I assume you're asking about Dodge and not spell durations, right? From a fiction perspective, dodging is a continuous activity not a discrete event that happens at a particular point in the round. From a mechanical perspective I found it displeasing that dodging did nothing if you rolled lower initiative than your attacker that round.

Actually my comment was for both, but speaking of Dodge specifically, to me, taking the dodge action means assuming a defensive posture. Initiative order is an abstraction of a character's reaction time. So to me if a player chooses to have her character take the Dodge action and then she rolls a low initiative, that means that her character was not quick enough to get into that defensive posture before creatures with higher initiative rolls get their actions off. So I guess we don't agree on that point.
Can you explain your fictional rational for why spells get extended durations?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So how do you work it with bonus actions? Could she spend her bonus action at declare time?

We had been letting folks not declare their bonus actions to save some flexibility. But I guess if ypu must declare them at the beginning of the round it's not an issue.

Bonus action dodge is usable at declare time. So is bonus action telepathy, and free action talking. That is, the Int 16 Necromancer can command his skeletons at declare time, but the skeletons still have to declare before the Int 7 orcs. Same for conjured animals and elementals.

Everything else needs to be decided at declare time, e.g. "I'll hit him with my axe until he dies, then move to the next nearest guy and hit him with any attacks remaining." In practice I'm not a stickler for this as long as it's obvious that's what he would have done--but if a dragon had teleported in during the round I'd be like, "no, you can't attack him, you're busy attacking the orcs this round." It's helpful to have written declarations to point to in this case.

 

[Melkor]

There were a couple of items that were brought up in my gaming group when the idea of using the variant initiative system in the DMG (and we haven't used it yet as a result).

One player mentioned that movement is not a calculated modifier along with Weapon Speed and Spellcasting Times, so someone standing right next to his opponent would attack at the same time (assuming the use of the same weapon and die roll) as someone who had to move his full move distance and then attack - which didn't sit right with that player.

Someone else brought up that there are spells that end at the start of your next round (I can't remember specifics or specific spells), and that if you rolled a late initiative in one turn, then an early one in the next, you would really limit the effect of those spells.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Can you explain your fictional rational for why spells get extended durations?

The rationale is mechanical: I'm trying to avoid gimping any spells, just as I don't want to gimp Dodge. If Blade Ward lasted only for the round you cast it, it would be only about half as effective as in RAW. By ruling that "your next turn" = "next round", it becomes slightly stronger than RAW for wizards who win initiative and exactly as strong as RAW for those who lose. I'm okay with winning initiative being advantageous so that seems better to me than the other way. Likewise, I want fire elementals who set you on fire to inflict damage at the start of the round, before declare time, so again "start of your turn=start of the round" works well. This prevents you from getting two saves in a row against Hold Person. Etc.

In short, messing with initiative is going to make spells and other special effects like Stunning Strike either stronger or weaker, and I'd rather have them be stronger-on-high-initiative than useless-on-low-initiative, especially since declaring actions in advance weakens them again (e.g. you might Blade Ward against a threat that's already dead).

 

[lumenbeing]

The rationale is mechanical

In short, messing with initiative is going to make spells and other special effects like Stunning Strike either stronger or weaker, and I'd rather have them be stronger-on-high-initiative than useless-on-low-initiative, especially since declaring actions in advance weakens them again (e.g. you might Blade Ward against a threat that's already dead).

Okay I get. I guess an alternative would be to track the equivalent of a full round. So if there are 4 PCs and 2 monster groups, a spell that was supposed to last until the caster's next turn could be said to last for 6 turns.

Hmm. In the case of a caster casting a spell that is no longer useful because the threat was eliminated before her initiative, I think it would be fair to rule that they could use their reaction to abort the casting and declare a new action, but force them to take that action last in init order.

 

[lumenbeing]

Or you could just allow any caster casting a spell of "until the start/end of your next turn" duration to have the option of holding their initiative until the end of the next round.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Or you could just allow any caster casting a spell of "until the start/end of your next turn" duration to have the option of holding their initiative until the end of the next round.

Sure, whatever you want. What I've got works fine for me but you do what's right for you.

Be sure to report back here on your experiences with whatever way you choose!