D&D 5E First World: Possibly One of the New D&D setting?

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I wouldn't call the way they handled 5E Ravenloft "slightly changed" - there's not much about the setting that they didn't change, and some elements were unrecognizable beyond a few familiar names. The changes also went well beyond addressing problematic content.

Ravenloft is the exception. And every single change made was either to get rid of problematic content or change it in a way WotC thought would improve the setting (changing some Dark Lords to be less obvious ripoffs of horror books/movies, removing the Core because WotC wanted to focus on Ravenloft being a horror setting and having domains of dread be right next to each other doesn't enhance the feeling of isolation key to running effective horror campaigns, etc).

By contrast, Eberron was only slightly changed for 5E. Unsurprisingly, the latter update got much less grumbling than the former.

But there was still grumbling. There were people complaining about the changes to Eberron when it came out. Less complaints than there were for the 4e version, because its changes were bigger, but there were people complaining about 5e's changes to the setting.

It'll be interesting to see where Spelljammer and Dragonlance fall in that spectrum.

Spelljammer I assume will only be barely changed. The only real problematic stuff with the setting can be easily ignored by not updating them at all to 5e, and the main change that some people are complaining about (the Phlogiston being replaced with the Astral Sea) was also made because it would make the setting more fun for more people. Dragonlance might get some major changes (Kender, Gully Dwarves, maybe Draconians, High Sorcery, etc), but will probably be not as changed as Ravenloft was.

 

[Faolyn]

I wouldn't call the way they handled 5E Ravenloft "slightly changed" - there's not much about the setting that they didn't change, and some elements were unrecognizable beyond a few familiar names. The changes also went well beyond addressing problematic content. By contrast, Eberron was only slightly changed for 5E. Unsurprisingly, the latter update got much less grumbling than the former.

It'll be interesting to see where Spelljammer and Dragonlance fall in that spectrum.

There was a lot of problematic content in Ravenloft, as well as a lot of content that, in retrospect, took away from the horror.

 

[JEB]

Ravenloft is the exception.

So far, but we haven't yet seen how the other "classic" settings will be handled. Ravenloft demonstrated that they can justify a lot of changes when they think it will "improve the setting."

But there was still grumbling.

Sure, but again, far less. Which suggests the vast majority of existing fans felt well served by 5E Eberron. Unlike 5E Ravenloft, which got a decidedly more mixed reception among established fans. Maybe they'll take that response to heart. Or maybe they just don't care. We'll see.

Spelljammer I assume will only be barely changed. The only real problematic stuff with the setting can be easily ignored by not updating them at all to 5e, and the main change that some people are complaining about (the Phlogiston being replaced with the Astral Sea) was also made because it would make the setting more fun for more people.

A fair number of Spelljammer fans apparently think that change fundamentally alters the nature of the setting, in a way that they were specifically worried would happen (a "Planejammer" that switches the focus to planar adventuring). Of course, we haven't seen yet if that'll actually be the case; they did mention "nuances" to the change, and Wildspace certainly got emphasized in the Monstrous Compendium. In any case, I certainly hope established fans will feel the setting was done justice.

Dragonlance might get some major changes (Kender, Gully Dwarves, maybe Draconians, High Sorcery, etc), but will probably be not as changed as Ravenloft was.

I expect they'll carefully avoid getting into too much detail about Dragonlance the setting, just like the way they handled Greyhawk in Ghosts of Saltmarsh. Which is certainly a smarter move if you want to avoid a backlash, you get to tap the nostalgia well without alienating anyone.

 

[JEB]

There was a lot of problematic content in Ravenloft, as well as a lot of content that, in retrospect, took away from the horror.

As we've previously discussed, there were alternative approaches to a total setting reboot for addressing those issues.

 

[Micah Sweet]

First, Ravenloft isn't the real world and doesn't have real world history. If you care that much about "history," then you should also remove every trace of magic and all non-human PC races, since they're not historically accurate.

Secondly, it's incorrect, because real-life people who have birth defects like kyphosis (the technical term for hunchback) are not magically cursed, no matter what some people in the real world may have believed. It's deeply insulting to say that they are--just like it's insulting to say that just because some people believe that actual Romani are all thieves with powers of divination and the evil eye, that the Vistani should all be like that. Actual, real people have deformities. Edit: They shouldn't be treated as magically cursed for it.

Thirdly, by your logic, why not make sexism, homophobia, and skin color-based racism an official part of the game? I mean, it used to be part of Ravenloft, because that was part of Falkovnia: Vlad Drakov had a disdain of women and "effete" men which he enforced throughout the entire country, and there was a higher Outcast Rating for humans that came from domains with darker skin colors. Are you upset they removed that as well?

And fourth, if you really cared about what people believed and wanted the stats to reflect that, you'd better throw out the entire Monster Manual. "Historically," there was really no difference between demons, undead, and lycanthropes. And fey.

And finally, fifth, "historical reasons" are an incredibly stupid reason to keep something around.

I'm going to bow out of this before things get too heated. Look, I get it. You folks care more about playability and popularity than consistency and verisimilitude. I want the game to play well too, and I want other people to want to play it. I just think that fantasy based on material where people behaved badly towards each other shouldn't be completely rewritten to pretend those things aren't built into the origin of the work. You should at least be able to opt in for that, if only for the outcast option mentioned above. When every setting conforms to modern values, it shows how manufactured everything else in the setting is. Think of it as something else for heroes to rise above.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd rather have a setting be "disingenuous" or "not faithful" to its original content than have it include racist, sexist, homophobic, and ableist content (which many popular older settings have). I'd rather have people that like the base ideas of those settings be able to play them in a slightly different way from the original than doom the original to be forgotten or force WotC to publish the older setting exactly as originally published with all of its problematic/outdated content. I'd rather have fun with a slightly changed version of an older setting than never get to experience that setting in my preferred ruleset because some older players get grumpy at me for not playing how they want me to.

I'd rather D&D prosper and evolve than stagnate and die because someone on the internet complained about minor changes.

Incidentally, there are 5e conversions out on the interwebs, on DMs Guild and elsewhere, for just about every setting that WotC ever made. You don't need WotC to play 5e Ravenloft, or Dragonlance, or any of it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Incidentally, there are 5e conversions out on the interwebs, on DMs Guild and elsewhere, for just about every setting that WotC ever made. You don't need WotC to play 5e Ravenloft, or Dragonlance, or any of it.

I tried that with Spelljammer. It was of way lower quality and functionality than what we're getting this summer. And I almost always use physical copies, which almost never happen on the DMsGuild.

Official is always better for stuff like this, IMO. I like the art better, the content is better balanced, they're more likely to remove problematic aspects of the setting, and they're generally just better written.

Go use the DMsGuild content if that works for you. It doesn't for me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Funny thing to me is that for Ravenloft, the changes seemed to reset to a pre-Core time (which is what, pre-2E?) so actually felt like a return to a very OG Ravenloft in some ways. Which was great to me, as I have zero interest in the Core. Always felt it as a concept was anti-horror and Marvel Battleworld instead.

I really liked Marvel Battleworld. All hail God-Doom!

 

[Micah Sweet]

So far, but we haven't yet seen how the other "classic" settings will be handled. Ravenloft demonstrated that they can justify a lot of changes when they think it will "improve the setting."


Sure, but again, far less. Which suggests the vast majority of existing fans felt well served by 5E Eberron. Unlike 5E Ravenloft, which got a decidedly more mixed reception among established fans. Maybe they'll take that response to heart. Or maybe they just don't care. We'll see.


A fair number of Spelljammer fans apparently think that change fundamentally alters the nature of the setting, in a way that they were specifically worried would happen (a "Planejammer" that switches the focus to planar adventuring). Of course, we haven't seen yet if that'll actually be the case; they did mention "nuances" to the change, and Wildspace certainly got emphasized in the Monstrous Compendium. In any case, I certainly hope established fans will feel the setting was done justice.


I expect they'll carefully avoid getting into too much detail about Dragonlance the setting, just like the way they handled Greyhawk in Ghosts of Saltmarsh. Which is certainly a smarter move if you want to avoid a backlash, you get to tap the nostalgia well without

I tried that with Spelljammer. It was of way lower quality and functionality than what we're getting this summer. And I almost always use physical copies, which almost never happen on the DMsGuild.

Official is always better for stuff like this, IMO. I like the art better, the content is better balanced, they're more likely to remove problematic aspects of the setting, and they're generally just better written.

Go use the DMsGuild content if that works for you. It doesn't for me.

It does, and I do. I also don't care about art, don't agree about the balance, and obviously have different opinions about problematic content than you.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm going to bow out of this before things get too heated. Look, I get it. You folks care more about playability and popularity than consistency and verisimilitude. I want the game to play well too, and I want other people to want to play it. I just think that fantasy based on material where people behaved badly towards each other shouldn't be completely rewritten to pretend those things aren't built into the origin of the work. You should at least be able to opt in for that, if only for the outcast option mentioned above. When every setting conforms to modern values, it shows how manufactured everything else in the setting is. Think of it as something else for heroes to rise above.

A game is only as consistent and as real as the DM and players choose to make it. Which means that what the books actually doesn't matter unless you prefer games that railroad you.

Ravenloft is a game of gothic horror. People are horrible to each other in that game because it's a game of gothic horror, not because of verisimilitude.

And you can always choose to add as many horrible things into a game as you want. Many GMs manage to do that just fine, and a lot of their stories end up on places like r/rpghorrorstories. Because most of the time, it's done badly by people who include bigotry, claiming it's for "historical" reasons but it's actually so they can be jerks.

And quite frankly, I don't want to play in a fantasy setting where I personally would be discriminated against.