Fitting other cultures into the D&D mythos?

[CruelSummerLord]

It goes without saying, of course, that medieval/feudal Europe has been well-developed when it comes to standard D&D and its trademarks-demihumans, humanoid races, various monsters, etc.

Of course, at the same time that the various European kingdoms and states were going about their business, other cultures in other parts of the world were forming their own states and countries: the Malian Empire in Africa, the Aztec Empire in South America, the Iroquois and Blackfoot Confederacies in North America, the Mongol Empire, Japan and China, etc.

This begs the question: What would a D&D world, where elves and trolls are just as much a part of reality as humanity, look like when it manifests in these other African/Mesoamerican/North American First Nations/Middle Eastern/Asian cultures?

How would you as a worldbuilder design these worlds? Would demihumans and humanoids exist around the world, just as would humans? How would they interact with them? How would orcs react in their dealings with the Mayans? How would halflings get along with the Chinese? How would dwarves get along with the Persians or Ottoman Turks?

My own take presumes that the demihumans and humanoids DO exist all around the world, just as do the humans, because without them, I do not feel that D&D is really...well, D&D. Some may see that as a limit of imagination or a refusal to think outside the box (which I would disagree with), but I am quite comfortable doing it.

Obviously, the presence of races like dwarves and orcs can have a considerable impact on the human cultures. For instance, all humans would have access to metalwork and steel weapons, either forged on their own or obtained in trade with dwarves and gnomes (similar to how white fur traders would give First Nations people guns in exchange for furs, dwarves might exchange steel weapons for things like vegetables or corn.)

Alliances can also be forged: Gnomes and elves can exchange notes on technology, mathematics or astronomy with cultures that are interested in such things, as the Arabs and Chinese historically were; halflings can form alliances for mutual benefit with cultures that participated extensively in agriculture or were otherwise settled in one place for a long time, if not permanently, such as the Haida or the Iroquois in Canada.

Such cultures would obviously also have their own forms of divine and arcane magic, and classes in those settings might be based on other famous roles (shamans, samurai, etc.) as variations on the standard types we know in a European-based setting.

This would be essentially an extension of the D&D mythos and world beyond its European base, while at the same time retaining the basic D&D trademarks. We know what Europe looks like in your typical D&D world, what about the rest of the world?

Thoughts?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They tried some of this in 2Ed with settings like Oriental Adventures, Maztica and Al Qadim, and in 3Ed, its been done by other publishers, like Atlas Games' Nyambe.

To answer what seems to be your core question, though, unless the landmasses are joined, like Europe and Asia, the supernatural inhabitants are just as constrained by geography as mere mortals.

While there may be "gnomes" in lands other than Europe, they may not look or behave in the same way. They would have a different culture. They may have evolved to become something initially unrecognizable as gnomes. Think of Darwin's finches.

Or if the races don't drift genetically in your campaign world, in some lands, the humanocentric orientation that is central to the background of a typical campaign may not hold true. Orcs would make fine substitutes for Mongols, Vikings, Visigoths, Celts or other warlike peoples. Elves could be used to sub for the Japanese or Chinese- insular towards outsiders, highly cultured. Halflings could rule Australia.

Centaurs could rule the central plains of North America.

 

[WayneLigon]

This begs the question: What would a D&D world, where elves and trolls are just as much a part of reality as humanity, look like when it manifests in these other African/Mesoamerican/North American First Nations/Middle Eastern/Asian cultures?

*headscratch* I'm not sure what you're asking about, here? Why would you assume that the same cultures, human racial types, etc that Earth had exist in Campaign World X or whatever? What do you mean by 'when it manifests'?

Both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have Mayan/Chinese/Mongol analogs but that's by no means common in my experience. I suppose it might work much as it works in those settings: they have much the same demihuman races, spells, etc as any other place does. I'm sure some of them would treat the demihumans somewhat differently.

My own take presumes that the demihumans and humanoids DO exist all around the world, just as do the humans, because without them, I do not feel that D&D is really...well, D&D. Some may see that as a limit of imagination or a refusal to think outside the box (which I would disagree with), but I am quite comfortable doing it.

Well.. of course they do? Why on Earth would anyone assume they only existed in the 'Europe' analog (if indeed there is such a thing on that world)?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I tend to think that nonhuman PC races distract from what's good about settings where there are identifiable analogues of historical human cultures.

I don't think it's a good thing when, for instance, we have "European" humans and "European" dwarves over here, both straight out of the Player's Handbook, but over there we have "Asian" humans and "Asian" dwarves. There are two ways you can go: either both races are identical, or the Asian dwarves are korobokuru (or whatever).

In the first instance, it would be the rare setting designer or GM who could invent an Asian dwarf culture that was both as distinct from the Asian human culture as the European dwarves were from the European humans, and recognisably similar to that Asian human culture in contrast to the European humans and dwarves.

In the second instance, why on Earth are the Asian dwarves so mechanically different from their European counterparts, when the Asian and European humans are identical? Of course, there can be answers to these questions, but the bigger question (in my opinion) is - why bother?

Worst of all, as far as I'm concerned, is when humans are European but elves are Asian, orcs are African, dwarves are Arabian . . . eugh.

I prefer fantasy settings where either the PCs are human, and various human cultures may be based in whole or in part on historical human cultures, or the PCs are of multiple races, and their various cultures are more original in nature.

For one thing, this means that I don't assume any cultures in a multiple-race setting are going to look like 12th-century Europe. I'm freaking sick of it anyway.

 

[Nyaricus]

If you wanted a taste of my homebrew... here it is!

My homebrew CS Ascension: Paths of Power treats matters such as you speak of in a similar manner.

It's not straight-up D&D by any meaning of the word. What I do for my CS is I research myths, legends, folklore, fairy tales, Judeo/Christian religious stories, Celtic Cycles, Nordic Sagas, etc etc etc - and bring the beings and concepts in those writings to life in Ascension. In it, there are Nordic trolls in the north, fey creatures in my celtic areas, nine orders of angels out of the Christian religion and so on. I fuse this with a heavy dosage of Tolkienisms; I have Tolkien dwarves, elves, hobbits and orcs - and I mix then all up in a way in which makes sense (well, in my mind, at least).

However, my tolkienesque races - the bread n butter races of D&D - are not integrated in the ways in which you suggest the elves and gnomes exchange astrology with the Chinese, et al. Hobbits are homebodies in one small part of my world, elves consist of light, dark and twilight elves - the light being those who have stayed in their traditional homeland, the dark elves being the ones who have chosen a dakr path due to a terrible war in the past - and whom were cursed black by their gods, and the twilight elves are those who chose neither sides in the war, and left their homeland. Mostly, the twilight elves in my world are now all 'half-elves', thought most men couldn't tell the difference between them and a light elf. Dwarves are holed up tight in their mountains in the current year of my homebrew, and men and other races are unlikely to see them; save for their wandering cousins, the petty dwarves. Orcs, goblins and hobgoblins are a menace in the north, and they are mainly barbarous, like the orcs in the mountain pass in the Hobbit, or the goblins who've taken over Moria in LOTR.

Other little racial details I can think of:

• Ogres:
  
  When the Giants (whose true name, in their (the Giant's) tongue is Fomorian) invaded Amneron (my worlds rough equivalent of Europe) they were repelled by humans and (eventually, once the humans sent out many scouts into the far territories) their elven allies. Dwarves were deep under the earth and at this point were not a prominant race above ground. The Fomorians had no desire to wage a large-scale campaign at this point - they simply wanted room enough to settle. So, the northern raiding party, which was ruled by the Prince of the Fomorians, sent out scouts who found the Orcs.
  
  Orcs are Tolkienesque in my campaign. They were created by a god forgotten by time of evil, hatred and darkness, and the orcs were spiteful, decrepit beings. The Giant Prince traded many of his peoples daughters in return for help from the orcs, who were warmongers of the vilest sort. They had never heard of the elves before, living farther to the north, but swiftly set off war-parties to investigate the elven region of Angfalas further to the south, and east.
  
  While the rest of the details are unimportant here, the orc and giant blood mixed from this trade off, and a new race which was bestial and warmongering like the orcs, but tall and very formidable in combat like Fomors was born. These monsters were called Ogres.
  
  Many of these children were born, and this new races numbers swelled greatly, and the majority of ogres would live alongside orcs. This was about 20,000 years ago. However, in the past thousand or so years, the ogre population has greatly decresed, so much so that it's blood in thinning with further interbreeding with orcs. This new development is giving rise to another new race, nick-named "Orc-ogres", or "Orogs" by men, and who are smaller than ogres, but larger than orcs. [note: they are medium with Powerful Build, and only the name is really similar to this race from FR et al].
  
  "True" ogres still exist, but they are less and less frequent, with this new race of Orogs on the rise. However, orcs still outnumber both, so it's hardly like either are dominating, and the Fomors have been in decline for millenia (sp?).
  
• Giants:
  As mentioned above, there were two parties of the Giants: the northern raiding party and the southern bunch. This distinction between the two created many other disparate cultures of giants in the time from their landing in the distant past. Also of note was the distinction between the common Fomorians and the noble Fomorians; the nobles usually were much larger in size and more adept as Priests, Astrologers, Nobles, etc. The common Fomors were smaller in size, and a bit tougher, and were generally farmers, herdsmen, and all sorts of middle-class type people (smithies, vendors, etc).
  
  For the northern party, they soon found the winters to be unbearable. Their priests were mighty in power, and connected to the elements; the giants are a seafaring people and water is something which called them deeply in their hearts. Seeing the possible impending disaster with the harsh winters of the north, the priests called upon their gods in many ceremonies, spiritual journeys, complicated rituals and other such divine searches. The gods then blessed the giants with a cold affinity; they were unaffected by the cold, suffering no ill effects because of it. Their skin took on an icy sheen, and these giants thrived in their new environment. The noble fomors of this bloodline are now known as Storm Giants'(or 'Hrim-Thursar' in their tongue)for their control over the elements, and the common fomors are known as Frost Giants (or 'Thursar' in their tongue) for their control over the icy weather.
  
  The giants to the south, however, did not fair as well. Their human adversaries called in elvish allies from their homeland far away to the east over a vast mountain range for help, and the giants were beaten back. The giants, in turn, made an alliance with the orcs, as mentioned above, and sent the orcs to the heart of the elven kingdom, hacked down trees, burned down forests, and killed game wantonly. The giants gave many daughters to the orcs for this favour, which is where the ogre race arose from.
  
  However, this was all in vain; many elves in their homeland rose up and killed the orcs, despite no elven blood being shed (in turn, the elven gods turned the elves who killed off the orcs black in colour for their impudence and crimes). The humans and the elves in the west sundered the giant armies, and the entire race fled every-which-way.
  
  Since then, these southern giants have changed and different cultures have arisen; mainly the southern giants are now known through their Hill and Mountain Giant descendants, as well as the Laestrygonians; the Cyclopes and the Ogres - these and mainly common Fomors; this group of giants are categorized as being Foawrs, or "stone-throwers' [note: this group of giants is named after a group of giants called Foawrs in Celtic mythology who threw stones; since all of these giant sub-races throw stones in stories, I used the name as a 'genus', of sorts). However, the King and many noble Fomors fled south and their bloodline still survives in the race men call 'Titans'.
  
  The northern giants, however, flourished. They revelled in their power over the elements, but soon they had to spread out as space wouldn't permit such a large group of large beings in such a small area. From here, the 'Jotunar' (as the northern giants are called by men) changed into many different sub-races. A contingent of common Fomors from the south arrived, and were blessed by the Jotun preists; some turned into 'Stone Giants' (or 'Bergbui' in thier tongue) or Cliff Giants (or 'Bergriser' in their tongue). Some of the Storm Giants eventually made a pact with some sort of fire god, or fire demon, and he changed them into creatures of elemental fire, rather then ice; forevermore they were known as Fire Giants (or 'Muspellar' in their tongue). Some of these Fire Giants went south and east into far deserts where they in turn thrived; their descendants are called Anakim by humans, and some even interbred with humans, giving us the race known as Nephilim.
  
  Also, long forgotten in the great north are a race known as Ocean Giants. No one knows much about them, but none of the ceremonies cast involved them; it is thought they followed the ships leaving their homeland and came to the north of Amneron, where they now live under icy depths. They are supposedly shape-changers and great workers of magic.
  
• Hobbits:
  Like in Tolkien, there are 3 subraces of Hobbits IMC. There are Lightfoot Hobbits, Tallfellow Hobbits and Stoutheart Hobbits.
  
  Lightfoot Hobbits: the 'common' hobbit you'll meet. Generally friendly, they are of the shortest height, of medium build, and are usually simple peasants living simply lives.
  
  Stoutheart Hobbits: the most traditionalist of the hoobitfolk you'll meet; they are of medium height, heavyset of frame and make up much of the magistrates, sheriffs, clergy et al of the hobbit peoples.
  
  Tallfellow Hobbits: the most free-willed of the hobbits you'll meet, they are also the rarest bunch. They tend to live on the outskirks of society, at the end of the lane, so-to-speak. They are, however, the most common of the adventuring hobbits you may meet; and while they are often black-listed in their communities, their heroics are often praised in human societies. They are the tallest of the hobbits, and also the thinnest; they are also well-noted of their love of all things elven.
  
• Elves
  I'm not going to go over the whole racial split thing, which was largely covered in the giant section, but here are some more minor details:
  
  Light Elves: those who still dwell in the great elven homeland known as Angfalas. They are pure of heart and nature-lovers of the noblest sort. They are also known as High Elves. They have great cities in the trees, and they light up lanterns with giant firebugs which light up the cities at night with a green glow. In the largest cities (such as Taraul, the capitol), situated around the tallest of the trees, the trees have been shaped over thousands of years to have steps built right into the trunks, which are commonly well over 300 feet in height. The cities are enchanted so that if one were to slip off a ledge, they would fall to the ground unharmed. Elven homes are shaped by branches and look nothing more like giant squirrel nests situated on top of branches - thought much easier on the eyes, and are amazing in details; most having the branches which create the frame shaped in some sort of complex picture or pattern.
  
  Dark Elves: those who, in the distant past, split from their high-elven cousins. Their skin is of the darkest black, to match their wilted souls. For a spin on the traditional "D&D Dark Elf", I have mine set in blackened forests of their own making; these Dark Elves have twisted the trees to create a great cloak over the forest floor, covering everything in a great blanket of eternal darkness. Sickened, albino creatures feast off rotting vegetation and mushrooms within these black territories, and their are many of these areas over the north and west of Amneron. The Dark Elves are known for raiding human settlements by night, and not many live near these areas any more. Evil fey are known to associate with the Dark Elves. BTW, I'd love commentary on this twist on Dark Elves.
  
  Twilight Elves: this subrace is a bit of a broad term covering 3 distinct peoples, and the term itself is a bit archaic: there are the sea elves, whom live beneath the waves. Generally, these elves have stayed close to Angfalas, which itself is a great peninsula. There are the Silvan Elves, which are much less friendly then their High Elven cousins, and who live in secluded communities not nearly as beautiful as the elven homeland; much more rough around the edges, so-to-speak. They are hunters who stay on neutral with surrounding peoples, and who generally look out for themselves first. Finally, there are half-elves. This sub-race largely consists of Twilight Elves who intergrated with human communites. These elves likely hold a position of importance in their comunity, such as seigner, captain of the watch, high priest of a church, or other such placement.

That's about all I can think of for now; hopefully that will sate some for now

cheers,
--N

 

[Tonguez]

My current setting Mythic Polynesia is self contained and presented at a point when it does not have contact with the continents. Available PC races include anlogues to 3 human subgroups*, gnomes, giants and goblins.

However the Human subgroups use the stats of half-elfs and half-orcs, the setting does not have Orcs, Dwarfs or Halflings, nor Elfs (although it does have Sidhe (fey)). The main antagonistic races are Sahuagin and Ogre (including aqautic varieties). Winged humans and Aqautic humans have also been encountered as have insectile goblins

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I have played in a Bronze Age setting in which Humans, Werewolfs and Wolfish Gnolls were the main inhabitants of the Land (a Druidic Theocracy with a Wolf goddess in which Gnolls are honoured as Divine Warriors)

To the North the Land was bordered by mountains in which Hobgoblins, Ogres and Humans had established a colaition of city-states reminiscent of classical greece.

Beyond the mountains was a dry plateau upon which dwelt scorcerous elfs (in the fertile forest edge) who had been subjugated by nomadic empire of Centaur warriors (based on Monglus/Huns and who used the titles of Khan and Bahadur)
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Another setting I helped design was an alternate 16/17th Century Earth inspired by Solomon Kane.
Oliver Cromwell had survived his sickness and the Lord protector was still a force to be reckoned with in England and Northern France. However Lyonnes had risen from the waves returning the Sidhe to Eire and Cruithne meaning that The Protectorate was beseiged by Goblyns, Aelfs and Witchery from the North.

In Southern Europe the Grand Inquisitors of Spain had become Pope and had gone on to impose a Theocracy over the Iberian Peninsula. The Inquisitors had suppressed he dwarf population forcing them to move into the Germanic Lands where they were welcomed by gnomes (native to Scandanavia) who had long lived in free association with the resident humans

The Ottomans still held power in Granada as well as across northern africa and up into the Southeastern Europe threatening Vienna. Orcs dwelt in the Caucasus mountains as an barbaric and oppressed minority.

Across in Eastern Europe Vampire Lords and Werewolfs kept the small isolated villages in constant fear.

 

[interwyrm]

Using an earth-analogue, I would check the mythologies of local cultures and accordingly assign demihuman civilizations in the area. This likely means that elves, at least, will only appear in northwestern Europe. Ogres are probably endemic to Asia. You'd have a variety of goblin types ranging from England to Japan. I could be totally off-base on those assignments. I'm really only familiar with Norse, Greek, and (to a lesser extent) Egyptian mythology.

 

[Mark Chance]

While there may be "gnomes" in lands other than Europe, they may not look or behave in the same way. They would have a different culture. They may have evolved to become something initially unrecognizable as gnomes. Think of Darwin's finches.

IOW, the "Darwin's finches" gnomes would look just like regular gnomes except for a small variation in nose structure due to differences in diet?



I've toyed this idea before. Every single time, the Chinese end up turned into dwarves. If nothing else, this would let me have a Hari Chin Dynasty.

ba-dum-ching!

(Or should that be ba-dum-I-Ching!?)

 

[CruelSummerLord]

*headscratch* I'm not sure what you're asking about, here? Why would you assume that the same cultures, human racial types, etc that Earth had exist in Campaign World X or whatever? What do you mean by 'when it manifests'?

Both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have Mayan/Chinese/Mongol analogs but that's by no means common in my experience. I suppose it might work much as it works in those settings: they have much the same demihuman races, spells, etc as any other place does. I'm sure some of them would treat the demihumans somewhat differently.

Well.. of course they do? Why on Earth would anyone assume they only existed in the 'Europe' analog (if indeed there is such a thing on that world)?

What I mean is, that if you look at the Big Three D&D settings (Dragonlance, FR, Greyhawk), it's fairly obvious that they're mostly based off medieval Europe. What I'm wondering is how parts of the world patterned after cultures (when their rulers have titles such as sheikh or daimyo, for example, as opposed to king or duke, it's fairly obvious what real-world cultures inspired them) would react and interact with the various demihumans.

In the first instance, it would be the rare setting designer or GM who could invent an Asian dwarf culture that was both as distinct from the Asian human culture as the European dwarves were from the European humans, and recognisably similar to that Asian human culture in contrast to the European humans and dwarves.

In the second instance, why on Earth are the Asian dwarves so mechanically different from their European counterparts, when the Asian and European humans are identical? Of course, there can be answers to these questions, but the bigger question (in my opinion) is - why bother?

The first instance is what I have in mind. The Asian dwarves would be, for the most part, mechanically identical to the dwarves of Europe, but their cultures would obviously differ. The reason for this is cultural interaction and influence.

Some of the patterns of demihuman races (militaristic hobgoblins, halflings skilled at agriculture, elves experienced with magic and nature, kobolds being sneaky and skilled at booby traps, gnomes skilled at engineering) these things can all be replicated in one way or another, since they're racial traits, just as the human race's trademark is its ability to be a jack of all trades but master of none.

Also bear in mind that this would preclude large-scale colonialism like the kind in real-world history: with all cultures having access to steel weapons, and gunpowder not functioning, no culture will ever be able to industrialize and overwhelm its foes with superior technology. The presence of beings like dwarves and halflings, with their resistances to poisons and disease, or experience in treating such things, would also blunt the impact of diseases on populations that don't have any resistance to them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IOW, the "Darwin's finches" gnomes would look just like regular gnomes except for a small variation in nose structure due to differences in diet?

Have you seen the beaks on Gnomes these days?