Five-Minute Workday Article

Why should I put in a lot of meaningless fights only to make up for the shortcomings of the system?
I prefer to run less encounters, but meaningful ones (like 4e encounters are, even if longer, as there you can have tactics and so far in DD&N you only have meaningless slaughter).
No, I don´t want meaningless fights. This is why I don´t want the 4 encounters assumed per day as in 4e. Neither do I wan´t every fight to be 5 rounds of combat.

I do wan´t some fights to be ended before they really begun. A fight against two guards is meaningless in a encounter balanced system. You use your encounter power, you recover them. In a daily system, you need to decide if it is worth blowing yur big guns. And the fight becomes meaningful for the later fights.

For the story it always has a meaning: will those guards be alive to tell someone about the PCs. It is just, that in an encounter based system, it does not matter if you need to fight them or not. It won´t cost you any resources.
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Whatever solutions to the 5 minute workday exist or don't exist, one thing that doesn't fix the problem is telling me that my issues with it don't exist. In terms of solving my problem, that does less than nothing. And that is the light in which I find myself reading this article.
Can I ask why you're reading it in that light? You've made a few comments in the thread on Vancian magic, but that doesn't enlighten me. I have a theory, but I don't want to be presumptuous.

I ask because both articles mention giving guidelines on how to avoid the issue. The Rule of Three article mentions an "XP budgeting system" to help DMs plan adventures, while the Legends and Lore article mentions giving the DM a "crystal clear guideline on how many rounds of combat a group should tackle before resting." Both articles mention math being worked into the game to make this possible.

While I, personally, don't think it'll work out as well as they hope, why would you feel like they're denying the problem? That's the part I'm curious about. As always, play what you like :)
 

Can I ask why you're reading it in that light? You've made a few comments in the thread on Vancian magic, but that doesn't enlighten me. I have a theory, but I don't want to be presumptuous.

I ask because both articles mention giving guidelines on how to avoid the issue. The Rule of Three article mentions an "XP budgeting system" to help DMs plan adventures, while the Legends and Lore article mentions giving the DM a "crystal clear guideline on how many rounds of combat a group should tackle before resting." Both articles mention math being worked into the game to make this possible.

While I, personally, don't think it'll work out as well as they hope, why would you feel like they're denying the problem? That's the part I'm curious about. As always, play what you like :)

The problem I have needs rules, not advice to fix it as far as im concerned. If they are saying they are only giving advice and guidelines and calling that "fixing" it, they are essentially not dealing with it. Specifically on the math being worked into the game comment, one of the issues that I deem requires mechanically fixing is game balance being set around a specific number of encounters or in this case combat rounds. Deviating from the assumed norm should not break the game balance wise. Instead of dealing with that, they are enshrining it.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
The problem with the 15-minute workday is not that it happens all that much, but that it causes the DM (unnecessary) work to prevent it from happening, and in some cases causes the players to have incentives that are perverse compared to what they want to do. I see this most often in my group when you see this kind of statement, "There's really no mechanical reason why we should press on, but I guess we are big heroes that would do so." In other words, if I don't work to make sure that they always have a reason, then the disconnect takes them out of the game world.

There are no mechanics that can totally stop this, it's true. That's a damn poor reason for not experimenting with some mechanics to work on it around the edges. "Hey, the dishes are going to get dirty anyway. What do you need a dishwasher for?" There is a middle ground between going out for every meal versus eating on paper plates all the time--or being a purist and washing every dish by hand. :p

Moreover, a certain slice of the problem is not caused by Vancian magic alone, but by the intersection of Vancian magic with hit points. No one is really all that upset if the party wants to rest when the spells are gone and the hit points are approaching single digits. That kind of pacing is exactly what Mearls is talking about contriving in the article.

One of the tools I'd like to see is an option that recognized that the hit points are the prime pacing tools, and worked accordingly. Namely, disallow recharging of Vancian spells and other such powerful resources for free (except maybe between adventures in restful, secure locations over several weeks*), but do allow them to be recharged with hit points.

That effectively means that the party runs out of resources when they run out of hit points. Now, you don't need to contrive anything, because it always works out that whether you are getting smacked or casting spells or whatever, when you hit that point where the hit points are low, the party is going to want to rest.

Naturally, you'd need to watch the healing magic, especially items. But that's a nice feature, too, in that if the party is in over their heads or doing really well, finding or not finding a few extra healing potions affects the pacing the way you'd expect. It should cost enough in hit points to make recharging a cure light wounds a bad idea. You might charge a premium for such spells to make recharging other spells more atractive.

Finally, this might have a pleasant side effect on the "clerics as healbot" issue, albeit only on long adventures. It becomes highly attractive for the cleric to start an adventure with mainly cures, as these are hard to replace. But then when used, the cleric does replace them with other spells--which now the cleric is highly encouraged to use as needed.

* If you make the recharge of Vancian spells always take hit points, then you can get some interesting opertional and strategic decisions when the party is in a secure location, but unsure of how much time they have before something big happens again. If you like this kind of thing, it would be good to not allow free recharge, and let the hit points the party is willing to risk be the guide. It becomes a more interesting mechanic than flat time for recharge, and also really makes natural healing interesting. However, if this part doesn't appeal to you, then such recharging at rest becomes a bunch of accounting, and you'd be better off to allow straight regain at rest on the grounds of fast play. In either case, how you handle that isn't crucial to the rest of the idea.
 
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Cadfan

First Post
Ok first off a few statements:
  1. I'm a die hard 4e player, but I've played every previous edition
  2. I am just stating my opinion. It's not meant to be taken as the only way.
In my humble opinion, the 5MWD is indeed a DM/player issue. I've played in 4e games where we press on with no healing surges, no dailies, and low on hit points, because we as roleplayers decided we had to! There was no magical 4e mechanic or rule that said we had to press on. It was simply the situation demanded it (as set up by the DM). Could we have retreated? Certainly. But, there would have been consequences.
And this is how you fix the 5MWD. Make sure there are consequences.
The five minute workday is a DM/player issue the same way that eating three meals a day is a personal choice. You can choose how you deal with hunger, but you can't choose whether you deal with hunger.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Specifically on the math being worked into the game comment, one of the issues that I deem requires mechanically fixing is game balance being set around a specific number of encounters or in this case combat rounds. Deviating from the assumed norm should not break the game balance wise. Instead of dealing with that, they are enshrining it.
Okay, this makes sense to me.

I'm not familiar with a wide assortment of RPGs, but I've played my share. Do you have a way to fix this mechanically that preserve resource management? That'd make for an interesting discussion. (If you're not interested in discussing it, that's okay, too. Thanks for answering my question.) As always, play what you like :)
 

hamstertamer

First Post
I still can't wrap my head around on the 15 minute adventuring day phenomenon. It's never been the situation in a D&D game where players want to or not(of course they want to), but whether they should or should not(that is the question). There are consequences for doing so, and it might be better for the PCs to press on. In an organic world; time keeps going, monsters keep hunting, and villains make plans. A PC can lay down and take a nap in the middle of an active battlefield, but is it a good idea? In fact, a PC can attempt a full rest anytime they say they want to. I might warn, "Are you sure you want to sleep in the black dragon's lair? You don't know where the Black dragon is." If they say "Yup absolutely." Then I will say "Very well. Let's take a short break, I need to do some figuring and make some rolls. You guys might want to grab a drink for this." And that's my point: abuse of 15 minute adventuring days make no sense in an organic world. Very rarely should the PCs have a clear and safe opportunity to rest in the middle of an adventure unless there is some exceptional reason. There is always an implied cost (besides using world time) to doing so unless you are safely in a town at the inn (but is the inn really that safe? Probably.)

Costs of full rests
Using world time (not always a big deal but it can be)
Using game time (making a list for guard duty, securing the area, picking spells, etc.)
becoming more vulnerable to the surrounding area and it's inhabitants.
giving enemies time to prepare.
giving enemies time to escape or hunt the PCs down.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Okay, this makes sense to me.

I'm not familiar with a wide assortment of RPGs, but I've played my share. Do you have a way to fix this mechanically that preserve resource management? That'd make for an interesting discussion. (If you're not interested in discussing it, that's okay, too. Thanks for answering my question.) As always, play what you like :)

One way to do this is to have multiple costs for the use of resources - one in the moment, one over the longer term. Spell casting for sorcerers in Mongoose Runequest is one good example. More powerful effects have an increasing action cost, but combining effects have a discounted operational cost. HP and healing surges in 4e are another example.
 

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