Five Suggestions to Limit Wizard Power

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

I've been thinking a lot about the Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard problem. We all know it was a major problem in 3rd, it was defeated in 4th by a radical overhaul to the way class mechanics work. With the return of Vancian Magic, there's a great fear that this will once again be a problem.

Here are my five suggestions to limit wizard power:

1. Reduce Spell Slots: In 3.5, Wizards maxed out at 4 slots per day per level, before bonus slots for a high int modifier. By reducing the number of spell slots per day, you begin to reduce the flexibility a wizard can have on any given day.

2. No Player Created Magic Items: A first level wizard in 3.5 got Scribe Scroll. Right away, the game designers are giving Wizards a tool to break the game. This one change essentially gave wizards access to their entire spellbook at any time for the cost of a few XP. Utility or situational spells could be scribed and access at will, further expanding the versatility of the 3.5 wizard. Likewise, player created wands contribute to this problem.

3. Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning: In 3.5, every time a wizard gained a level, they added two new spells of the player's choice to their spell book. The DM, not the player, should have the final say in what the PC Wizard has access to.

Likewise, being able to auto-learn an infinite amount of new spells gives the wizard an absurd amount of power. Learning new spells should be limited to X number per level or require an Intelligence check.

Learning new spells should be an accomplishment as each spell enhances the wizard's power. Steps should be made to protect the game from unlimited spell access. A wizard's spell book should not be all spells from the 3.5 PHB and Spell Compendium.

4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells: Invisibility and Knock have become iconic spells for the Wizard and should not be removed from the game. However, these spells directly conflict with key abilities of the Rogue. These spells should have some additional cost to them. Perhaps requiring two spell slots, a heavy time penalty, or the use of hit points. Regardless, spells that step into another class's niche need to have some additional cost to casting them.

5. Make Combat Casting Difficult: This was a huge change from 2nd to 3rd. The change to initiative system, the five-foot step, and the concentration skill made casting in combat almost trivial. Wizards should have to cast spells over several initiative segments. Damage should interrupt the spell. If you want to be kind, allow a check to not lose the interrupted spell.

 

[The Red King]

You want to make Knock take up 2 slots? Or cause HP damage?? I think you are a little overboard there.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

You want to make Knock take up 2 slots? Or cause HP damage?? I think you are a little overboard there.

It cost a healing surge to use in 4th. If 5th has a healing surge mechanic, I can see it costing that again as well.

Or, you could bump it up a spell level. If it has 2nd level power, make it a 3rd level spell since it infringes upon another class's core abilities.

 

[The Red King]

Is this about making the wizard less powerful, or making sure the party NEEDS a rogue?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Reduce Spell Slots

Yes. Please.

No Player Created Magic Items

Leave this as an option, but I think a subtle move away from PC casters crafting is a good idea as some abuse it.

Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning

That ends up being very DM dependent, but it is well said and certainly could be well implemented.

Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells

Eh. Check UA's solution to knock and enforce invisibility sensibly. And maybe make these things a bit harder to cast. It's all good.

Make Combat Casting Difficult

Yes. and let's have some longer casting times for some spells to make disruption easier.

 

[dkyle]

1. Reduce Spell Slots: In 3.5, Wizards maxed out at 4 slots per day per level, before bonus slots for a high int modifier. By reducing the number of spell slots per day, you begin to reduce the flexibility a wizard can have on any given day.

Yes. I'd like to see something like:

Class Level: levels of spell slots available
1: 0 0 1 1
2: 0 1 1 1
3: 0 1 1 2
4: 0 1 1 1 2
5: 0 1 1 2 3
6: 1 1 2 2 3
7: 1 1 2 2 3 4
...
20: 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 8 9

So, new spell slots get added relatively slowly. Instead, the spell slots become better at each level.

2. No Player Created Magic Items: A first level wizard in 3.5 got Scribe Scroll. Right away, the game designers are giving Wizards a tool to break the game. This one change essentially gave wizards access to their entire spellbook at any time for the cost of a few XP. Utility or situational spells could be scribed and access at will, further expanding the versatility of the 3.5 wizard. Likewise, player created wands contribute to this problem.

Wands and Scrolls are problematic. I have no problem with permanent item crafting, though, as long as it costs a balanced amount of gold. Only objection to that I could see is people not wanting that in their setting, but I think it should be available for those that do want it.

3. Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning: In 3.5, every time a wizard gained a level, they added two new spells of the player's choice to their spell book. The DM, not the player, should have the final say in what the PC Wizard has access to.

I definitely do not like the DM being given such a huge amount of control over what a Wizard can or cannot cast. That smacks of balancing Wizards by telling the DM to design the spell list themselves.

Likewise, being able to auto-learn an infinite amount of new spells gives the wizard an absurd amount of power. Learning new spells should be limited to X number per level or require an Intelligence check.

I'm not sure that it's inherently a huge deal. I mean, give a 4E Wizard's spellbook access to every single spell published (of their level or lower), and I don't think it would really be that significant of a change.

4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells: Invisibility and Knock have become iconic spells for the Wizard and should not be removed from the game. However, these spells directly conflict with key abilities of the Rogue. These spells should have some additional cost to them. Perhaps requiring two spell slots, a heavy time penalty, or the use of hit points. Regardless, spells that step into another class's niche need to have some additional cost to casting them.

Sounds like a job for Rituals.

5. Make Combat Casting Difficult: This was a huge change from 2nd to 3rd. The change to initiative system, the five-foot step, and the concentration skill made casting in combat almost trivial. Wizards should have to cast spells over several initiative segments. Damage should interrupt the spell. If you want to be kind, allow a check to not lose the interrupted spell.

Not sure about this. The spells would have to be really powerful to justify this. Losing spells is also a big bummer...

 

[Doug McCrae]

There are several possible options:

1. Everyone is magic, even the fighter.
2. Nerf magic.
3. Negative consequences for use of magic.

4e's approach is #2 and, arguably, #1 as well. I quite like #3 though imho it hasn't been well handled in previous editions. Most spells don't have negative consequences. In the case of those that do, the drawbacks frequently could be avoided or didn't work properly as a balance mechanism. For example, fireball's backblast was more likely to engulf the front line fighter than the magic-user who cast it, and there's no backblast if it's used in the wilderness.

A better version of #3 would be to make magic less Vancian and more as it appears in the works of RE Howard, Clark Ashton Smith or Michael Moorcock. In the tales by Howard and Smith, sorcerers are feared and reviled loners, dabbling in secrets man was not meant to know. The wizard in CAS's The Double Shadow is the victim of a creature he summons but cannot control. In Moorcock, particularly the Elric stories, all magical feats are performed by summoned entities which are hard to sway and often end up doing the opposite of what the caster intends or bringing about other negative, unforeseen consequences.

 

[Dimitrios]

Severely limiting the ability of PCs to craft magic items would go a long way toward solving many of the caster dominance problems that seem to have plagued 3.5. In another thread, someone was talking about it being common for the wizard to be walking around with an arsenal of 20 (!!!) wands.

In my experience, that sort of thing was either unheard of or else mocked as Monte Hall-ism in 1e/2e.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

It would need some fancy tap dancing to rationalize it, but mechanically how about limiting the "scribe scroll" effect to those missing bonus spells for Int? Reason being, I don't want to go too far, back to the 1E "wizard casts handful of spell, now is glorified link boy for rest of the day" business. At higher levels, keep the slots gained more under control, but give better bonuses for Int.

So in 3E terms, that "scribe scroll" means that a 1st level wizard has one first level spell slot. Then if he has an 18 Int, he can cheaply scribe up to 4 scrolls with other spells.

Now, make sure those scrolls are very risky to cast in combat. Not so bad they wizard won't be tempted to try it, but definitely a risk. At the very least, require at least two rounds to get it off, from first pulling the scroll and reading it to the final unleashing.

Possible rationalization: A scribed scroll is sort of a "pre-baked" spell that needs to be warmed in the microwave before being fully edible. Basically, the wizard isn't just casting a spell off of the scroll, as in previous versions. Rather, he is using the scroll as both a magic item and as a device to put key pieces of it into his head for the few seconds necessary to activate the whole thing and get it to work. It's a "mini-prepare spell with time limit" mechanic.

Instead of taking scrolls away, make scrolls still versatile but less useful--but also factored in as a key part of the wizards' overall power.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I've been thinking a lot about the Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard problem. We all know it was a major problem in 3rd, it was defeated in 4th by a radical overhaul to the way class mechanics work. With the return of Vancian Magic, there's a great fear that this will once again be a problem.

Here are my five suggestions to limit wizard power:

1. Reduce Spell Slots: In 3.5, Wizards maxed out at 4 slots per day per level, before bonus slots for a high int modifier. By reducing the number of spell slots per day, you begin to reduce the flexibility a wizard can have on any given day.

Remove automatic spell scaling, and # of spell slots isn't a huge issue.
5 1d4+1 magic missiles is not game breaking. (5 5ds4+5 is obviously much better)
5 5d6 fireballs at level 20 isn't a big deal. (5 10d6 fireballs, bigger deal)

2. No Player Created Magic Items: A first level wizard in 3.5 got Scribe Scroll. Right away, the game designers are giving Wizards a tool to break the game. This one change essentially gave wizards access to their entire spellbook at any time for the cost of a few XP. Utility or situational spells could be scribed and access at will, further expanding the versatility of the 3.5 wizard. Likewise, player created wands contribute to this problem.

Not remove, but Scrolls shouldn't be freebies. I'd rather see the gold part cut down and increase exp costs. Make them spend feats on all creation.

3. Remove Unlimited Spell Access and Learning: In 3.5, every time a wizard gained a level, they added two new spells of the player's choice to their spell book. The DM, not the player, should have the final say in what the PC Wizard has access to.

No. It's the Player's character, not the DM. The DM should be free to say what spells exist or don't in his campaign, but he should not be telling the player what spells he has to take. [/quote]

Likewise, being able to auto-learn an infinite amount of new spells gives the wizard an absurd amount of power. Learning new spells should be limited to X number per level or require an Intelligence check.

Learning new spells should be an accomplishment as each spell enhances the wizard's power. Steps should be made to protect the game from unlimited spell access. A wizard's spell book should not be all spells from the 3.5 PHB and Spell Compendium.

Spells are expensive to learn and scribe into your spell book, and they factor into the wizards wealth-by-level guidelines. They aren't free. They already require a spellcraft (not intelligence) to learn.

4. Additional Cost for Class Stealing Spells: Invisibility and Knock have become iconic spells for the Wizard and should not be removed from the game. However, these spells directly conflict with key abilities of the Rogue. These spells should have some additional cost to them. Perhaps requiring two spell slots, a heavy time penalty, or the use of hit points. Regardless, spells that step into another class's niche need to have some additional cost to casting them.

Knock should be modified to only open locks to a certain DC (increasing based on what level you memorize the spell), or to provide a bonus to Open Lock checks. (if you find an issue with the spell, which I don't.)
Invis should be changed to a bonus to hide checks, increasing with the level of the spell slot dedicated to it.
I don't care if spells step into other classes "niches" personally, in my experience, the wizard uses invis on the rogue anyway (free sneak attacks) or to escape. In addition, you are now forcing the player of the rogue to take Open Lock, because no other option exists. We've had a number of rogues who weren't into the whole lock picking and trap disabling.

5. Make Combat Casting Difficult: This was a huge change from 2nd to 3rd. The change to initiative system, the five-foot step, and the concentration skill made casting in combat almost trivial. Wizards should have to cast spells over several initiative segments. Damage should interrupt the spell. If you want to be kind, allow a check to not lose the interrupted spell.

The difficulty for this should increase, I agree.