Fixing the DMG Demographics

[GuardianLurker]

So, the ancient Egyptians didn't have the separation between military & peasantry that existed later.

I assume that said military actually farmed themselves, and didn't use slaves. Because, otherwise, that's not a whole lot different from the european feudal manor with its knights and serfs.

The separation in Ancient Egypt between food-producing population to non-food producing population was actually 6:1. The Nile was bountiful and provided an ample supply of food. Many of those that were not counted amongst the food-producing population were slaves ...
A very important factor in an Demographical survey is the presence of slaves. Slaves supply a work force that can be sustained with a minimum of food and with cheap living quarters.

For our purposes, I think we'll need to account for slaves/serfs that work the farms. I'm not sure that's accounted for in the figures you quote.

For purposes of dealing with slavery WRT to the base ratio, I think that it's probably safe to count them as 2/3 a person in terms of food consumption, to reflect their lower food intake.

After taking the slavery bit into account, what's the Egyptian ratio like? 7:1? 8:1?

Also, I think for our purposes (assuming people aren't modelling an Ancient campaign), we're probably more interested in the late pre-industrial stuff.

 

[Clay_More]

I would say that the Egyptian Ratio would finish up on 1:7. I think that it would make it most useful if we could make sample demographics for all of the usable time periods (probably finishing with the 16 th. century) and the various social structures, perhaps with various terrain variations. Describing the different societies will enable people to choose which one resembles their campaign, or a part of their campaign, the most. Having Ancient agricultural, Nomadic and Semi-Nomadic would be a good thing, since especially the Nomadic and Semi-Nomadic cultures resemble non-human cultures more than the agricultural ones (I, for example, have some tribes of semi-nomadic orcs in my world).

If we are talking purely D&D classes, then it is most easily done after the general aspects of the society has been resolved. But, Egypt for example, has a large number of skilled artisans, which might be Experts, that worked on many of their monuments. Even though they were slaves, didnt mean that they couldnt be educated and trained, even by their captors.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I agree with you about the final version.

I just want to start with the most useful stuff, i.e. the "typical campaign", first.

To provide a little focus, I see four main periods

• Primitive - i.e. paleolithical. No wide-scale effective magic, almost purely historical
• Ancient - bronze, iron, and "ancient" ages. Highly varied magic distribution, very close to historical.
• Early pre-industrial - dark ages, medieval. Roughly uniform magic distribution, but low-scale. Small, but noticeable divergence from historical
• Middle pre-industrial - renaissance. Magic wide-spread and effective. Noticeable divergence from historical.
• Late pre-industrial - enlightenment. Magic wide-spread, uniform, and optimized. Based on historical.
• Industrial - late 18th to early 20th (pre-auto). Purely fictional.

And the following subsistence styles:

• Agricultural
• Fishing
• Nomadic
• Semi-nomadic

While I agree that terrain is an influence, for our purposes, and simplicity, I think we can probably ignore it. At worst, it applies a modifier to the subsistence styles.

I'd suggest that we first focus our efforts on the middle pre-industrial, agricultural case, and branch from there. Solely as a starting point.

 

[Clay_More]

Sounds very fine to me. Im about to head to bed, but ill look closer into to it once I wake up and go to work. I got some good material on it already (was making some Demographics for some barbarian lands) so okay.

 

[Khorod]

I think its important to separate magic and technology into two.

This could be as simple as saying Early Pre-industrial Tech + Early Pre-industrial magic = Middle Pre-Industrial Era.

Without considering the difference, there is no way to model a nation with more magical power than tech. Not every setting is a 'rennaissance of magic and technology'. -- On second thought, I suppose treating such a place is the primary goal, expanding out such things could come later.

I agree that terrain is a modifier for subsistence, but it bears saying something about it. To get the same subsistence level as a rocky land, the green hills country needs fewer people. Probably a small modifier table in the corner...

And I presume by subsistence styles that by nomadic/semi-nomadic you mean 'Hunter/Gatherer', or, I suppose 'Mercenary'.

That in mind, two things are important- 1) what level is the average adult farmer. 2) How many druids and clerics are there for Cure Minor/Light Wounds & Plant Growth.

Presumably the higher the average farmer level, the more people their average checks can support. Are we going with the notion that the average guy is level 1?

 

[GuardianLurker]

I think its important to separate magic and technology into two.

This could be as simple as saying Early Pre-industrial Tech + Early Pre-industrial magic = Middle Pre-Industrial Era.

Actually, I hadn't been considering separating the two; primarily because for our purposes, there is a rough cap on tech (i.e. it must be preindustrial), but no cap on magic. This assumption changes of course if we're attemping a Dragonstar or d20 Modern setting.

Also, I've been assuming that there will not be large disparities between tech and/or magic levels of neighboring areas, and that over time both will diffuse and equalize.

And I presume by subsistence styles that by nomadic/semi-nomadic you mean 'Hunter/Gatherer', or, I suppose 'Mercenary'.

Yes. Although I suppose nomadic could be "Herder", and Semi-nomadic "Hunter/Gatherer". In terms of subsistence styles, I think (strangely enough) that the amount of travel will be the overriding factor, not the actual food tech.

That in mind, two things are important- 1) what level is the average adult farmer. 2) How many druids and clerics are there for Cure Minor/Light Wounds & Plant Growth.

We'll have to put off two for a bit, since we're (or at least I am) still working on figuring out the base ratio.

As for #1, I've been assuming the following rough skill levels :
Rank_Skill Level
1____Novice
5____Apprentice
11___Journeyman
16___Master
21___Grandmaster

I further assume that it isn't until Journeyman level that an adult is capable of supporting his family independently. This would make the "average" farmer somewhere around 8-10th level. OTOH, assuming a 1k XP/year advancement, a 10th level farmer would be 60.

However, if we go by an average age of 25, our farmer will have just hit 4th.

Of course, all of that is predicated on a 1K/year advancement rate. And all of that is a way of saying, "No, the average farmer isn't LV 1."

 

[Quinn]

I find this fascinating, but I have to wonder "What's wrong with the SRD demographics?" I don't want to start a debate about this per se, but if someone can give me just a general idea of why they're flawed, it'd add a lot of value to the discussion (at least for me. )

 

[Quinn]

If you are using farmer commoners as part of the baseline, you might want to consider how much wealth they bring in on a weekly basis. According to the Profession skill in the SRD, the amount of gold pieces brought in on a weekly basis is based on half of the check result. If you accept that (and you may not want to), and you have a basis for how much money you think a commoner should have, you can pretty much figure out the level based on the number of skill ranks necessary in Profession: Farming to get the acceptable check result.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I find this fascinating, but I have to wonder "What's wrong with the SRD demographics?" I don't want to start a debate about this per se, but if someone can give me just a general idea of why they're flawed, it'd add a lot of value to the discussion (at least for me. )

Check out my original thread in D&D Rules:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42859

Also, just run the numbers and ask yourself if they really make sense.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Fuel for the Fire...

OK, a couple of web resources I've found:

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
A good look at demographics, but focused more on the total population than class distribution, which is our main thrust.

http://www.io.com/~eighner/world_builder/world_builder_index.html
Almost everything you could want to know, I think. LOTS of stuff.

http://www.hut.fi/~vesanto/world.build.html
Ditto.

There's more out there, I'm sure...