Fixing the DMG Demographics


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S'mon:
Cool.

That's a large part of what I'm talking about. Not perfect as far as I'm concerned, but it's a nice solid basis for our discussions.

I have two main problems with it -
1) I think the mortality ratio is a bit steep at one-half (though I do like the little hitch-step at 10th and 11th). I'd vote for a 2/3 rate, myself.

2) Someway to separate out/focus on a particular class would be really nice. I can't really answer the questions "What does the level distribution for paladins look like in this city? What's the highest level wizard?"

But its a GREAT start.
 

GuardianLurker said:
S'mon:
Cool.

That's a large part of what I'm talking about. Not perfect as far as I'm concerned, but it's a nice solid basis for our discussions.

I have two main problems with it -
1) I think the mortality ratio is a bit steep at one-half (though I do like the little hitch-step at 10th and 11th). I'd vote for a 2/3 rate, myself.

2) Someway to separate out/focus on a particular class would be really nice. I can't really answer the questions "What does the level distribution for paladins look like in this city? What's the highest level wizard?"

But its a GREAT start.

Hi - glad you liked it. The 1/2 numbers at each higher level works for my campaign world, which has large (real-world medieval-size or larger) populations and is quite low-magic.
There are exceptional NPCs above these levels of course.
1/2 the numbers every 2 levels would give something closer to standard D&D norms, and resemble the CR table nicely. :)

By breaking down classes into % of each class you can get an idea of eg level distribution of paladins - if 1% population are PC-class and 1% of PC-class are paladins, 1 in 10,000 are Paladins. Personally my current approach is to amalgmate rare classes like Paladins into other groups of mostly common classes, like orders of knights who are mostly fighters, then distribute them as I see fit, so the occasional knight turns out to be a paladin rather than a fighter.
Also, elite groups may have a minimium admissions level of above 1st.

Eg: the Thrinian Knights - 400 Knights level 4+, 94% Fighter, 4% Cleric, 1% Paladin. 200 Level 4, 100 Level 5, 50 Level 6, etc.
There are also 400 trainee knights (armigers) of levels 1-3, & 1200 retainers (Warriors - 75% level 1, 12.5% level 2, 6.25% level 3, etc)
 

Ok, I ran some numbers based on various mortality rates -

Assuming the DMGs rate, and having a character at every level, for every 230 people in a class you get 1 20th level character.

Assuming a 1/2 mortality rate (each level up is 1/2 the number of people), for every 1048575 (2^20) people in a class, you get 1 20th level character.

Assuming a 2/3 mortality rate, for every
6648.51 people in a class, you get 1 20th level character.

Assumiong a CR-equivalent mortality rate, the number changes to 2557.5.

This give us the population base for a single class. But how many people does it take to have a 20th level character in every class?

If we assume all classes are equally likely, then this number is just 16 times larger: 3680, 16777200, 106376.22, or 40920.

If we assume all NPC classes are equally likely, and all PC classes are equally likely, but that 99% of everybody is an NPC class, then the numbers change to:
2530, 11534325, 73133.65, or 28132.5.

At this point, my brain fried, and I was unable to calculate the total numbers for the class-specific ratios like S'mon uses.

Note that the 99% mark in the last case is equivalent to the basic ratio we discussed earlier.

The attachment is a CSV-format spreadsheet that contains a more detailed analysis.
 

Attachments


Please forgive me if I step on any toes. This is a topic I've been playing with as well, and I wanted to share some of my results.

My Assumptions and Results

Level: Age 0-11 is level 0; age 12-13 is level 1 (apprentice); age 14-15 is level 2 (senior apprentice/journeyman); age 16-17 is level 3 (full journeyman, max skill +10, 2-3 feats); each 2 years thereafter represents a level (see CR assumptions, below).

CR: People tend to face threats in GROUPS; those best suited to facing threats are brought together to face those threats; the highest level people are highly mobile and imminently capable of finding and attacking the threats best suited to them; threats (like most ecologies) tend to rarify the higher they are, just like the population numbers. People tend to face 3-10 threats in the course of a year (of +/- 2 CRs to their level), based on the dangerousness of the D&D default worlds. The survival rate for this is pretty good (49 deaths per 1,000 people of a given age) due to organization and the fact that a CR of level+1 or lower is generally non-lethal against groups. AT AGE 13 AND LOWER, I assumed a death rate of only 5 per 1,000 people, assuming (rather optimistically) that they would generally be better protected and closer to mundane death rates (stillbirths and sickly births are ignored as part of a reduced birthrate). AT AGE 72 AND UP, adventuring STOPS; everytime I ran this, the death rate went through the roof when combined with the 2d20 roll, lost attributes (D&D's aging rules) and CR deaths combined - people who continue to fight past age 71 die quick, so the assumption is that they are reserved for emergences. This restricts levels to level 30.

Urbanization: If we assume that plant growth is not an urban multiplier (I think it is, but that's a whole 'nother controversy ;)), it should at the very least result in a maximized normal urban population (as if for extremely fertile and efficient farmland). That's about 15% urbanization (150 people out of every 1,000 total population are urban). A single level 5 cleric with plant growth with WIS 16 and the Plant Domain can, over the course of a year, cover 1,250 square miles (150,000 total population at a land density of 60). So we need seven 5th level or higher clerics per million people in the numbers below.

With a 1,000,000 population, here is the rough breakdown by level:

level 0 (0-11) - 347,512 (34.75%)
level 1 - 61,151 (6.12%)
level 2 - 56,588 (5.66%)
level 3 - 51,178 (5.12%)
level 4 - 46,285 (4.63%)
level 5 - 41,861 (4.19%)
level 6 - 37,859 (3.79%)
level 7 - 34,239 (3.42%)
level 8 - 30,966 (3.10%)
level 9 - 28,006 (2.80%)
level 10 - 25,329 (2.53%)
level 11 - 22,907 (2.29%)
level 12 - 20,717 (2.07%)
level 13 - 18,737 (1.87%)
level 14 - 16,945 (1.69%)
level 15 - 15,326 (1.53%)
level 16 - 13,860 (1.39%)
level 17 - 12,535 (1.25%)
level 18 - 11,337 (1.13%)
level 19 - 10,253 (1.03%)
level 20 - 9,273 (0.93%)
level 21 - 8,387 (0.84%)
level 22 - 7,585 (0.76%)
level 23 - 6,860 (0.69%)
level 24 - 6,204 (0.62%)
level 25 - 5,611 (0.56%)
level 26 - 5,074 (0.51%)
level 27 - 4,589 (0.46%)
level 28 - 4,151 (0.42%)
level 29 - 3,754 (0.38%)
level 30 - 3,395 (0.34%)
level 30 geezer - 31,528 (3.15%)

Class Distribution: On a 3d6 distribution, 46,296.3 people will have one attribute of 16+. Of those, 7,001.6 will have a 12+ in 2 other attributes. I'll mark that as "PC classes". Everyone else consists of "NPC classes". Here's my rough PC class ratings:

Code:
[color=skyblue]            STR DEX CON INT WIS CHR     Rarity Modifier
Barbarian    5   2   2   0   1   0      x0.1
Bard         0   3   0   2   0   5      x1
Cleric       0   0   2   0   5   3      x2
Druid        0   3   2   0   5   0      x0.5
Fighter      5   2   3   0   0   0      x2
Monk         3   3   0   0   4   0      x0.1
Paladin      2   1   1   0   3   3      x0.5
Ranger       2   3   2   0   3   0      x0.5
Rogue        0   4   0   3   1   2      x2
Sorcerer     0   2   1   0   0   7      x1
Wizard       0   2   1   7   0   0      x1

            STR DEX CON INT WIS CHR (after rarity modifier)
Barbarian   0.5 0.2 0.2  0  0.1  0
Bard         0   3   0   2   0   5
Cleric       0   0   4   0  10   6
Druid        0  1.5  1   0  2.5  0
Fighter     10   4   6   0   0   0
Monk        0.3 0.3  0   0  0.4  0
Paladin      1  0.5 0.5  0  1.5 1.5
Ranger       1  1.5  1   0  1.5  0
Rogue        0   8   0   6   2   4
Sorcerer     0   2   1   0   0   7
Wizard       0   2   1   7   0   0[/color]

There will be roughly 1,166.7 people with a 16+ in each attribute. Using the above as a straight list of proportions for each class, I get the following numbers (and % of total population) of each:

Barbarian: 78 (0.0078%)
Bard: 556 (0.0556%)
Cleric: 1,264 (0.1263%)
Druid: 317 (0.0317%)
Fighter: 1,591 (0.1591%)
Monk: 68 (0.0068%)
Paladin: 328 (0.0328%)
Ranger: 344 (0.0344%)
Rogue: 1,201 (0.1201%)
Sorcerer: 528 (0.0528%)
Wizard: 725 (0.0725%)

That looks pretty reasonable. You can multiply that by the Population by Level chart to get how many of a particular class at a particular level, as well. Based on our level breakout, that means we have 52.9 clerics at level 5, of whom 7 need to pick up the plant domain to support the numbers we've generated. Not bad!

Applying urbanization: At 15%, the urban population is 150,000. This includes ANY specialist who does not directly contribute to agricultural production, so all PC classes are considered "urban" even if they are a Fighter who protects his farming community from attack.

Population Centers:
Largest: 30,000 (metropolis)
2nd: 15,000 (large city)
3rd: 10,000 (small city)
4th: 7,500 (small city)
5th: 6,000 (small city)
6th: 5,000 (small city/large town)
The remaining 76,500 are in towns, villages, hamlets and thorps.
 

GuardianLurker said:
6) The ratio of size & number of settlements (i.e for every N thorps, yo have 1 village, or such like)
Hadn't thought much about this, but I think it comes out something like 5:1 for micropopulation centers to small pop centers (roughly thorpe/hamlet to village), and the same for village to town. Assuming that's right, it would give us:

76,500 non-city urbanized population
Towns (avg 2,500): 6 towns
Villages (avg 600): 30 villages
Smaller (avg 250): 174 smaller

(note: there were 0.5 "leftover" towns, I converted that into villages and smaller)
 

Another consideration: PC classes will probably die more often than NPC classes, simply because they are taking on more dangerous kinds of CR X tasks.

Assuming a 2/3rds death rate gave me these numbers (overall PC population):

level 0 (0-11) - 75,114 (73.99%)
level 1 - 13,218 (13.02%)
level 2 - 7,325 (7.22%)
level 3 - 3,255 (3.21%)
level 4 - 1,447 (1.43%)
level 5 - 643 (0.63%) (less than 1 cleric, kills plant growth idea)
level 6 - 286 (0.28%)
level 7 - 127 (0.13%)
level 8 - 56 (0.06%)
level 9 - 25 (0.02%)
level 10 - 11 (0.01%)
level 11 - 5 (0.00%)
level 12 - 2 (0.00%)
level 13 - 1 (0.00%)

Assuming a 10% death rate (still heinous), I got this:

level 0 (0-11) - 75,114 (50.82%)
level 1 - 13,218 (8.94%)
level 2 - 11,273 (7.63%)
level 3 - 9,131 (6.18%)
level 4 - 7,396 (5.00%)
level 5 - 5,991 (4.05%) (7.5 clerics, plant domain mandatory?)
level 6 - 4,853 (3.28%)
level 7 - 3,931 (2.66%)
level 8 - 3,184 (2.15%)
level 9 - 2,579 (1.74%)
level 10 - 2,089 (1.41%)
level 11 - 1,692 (1.14%)
level 12 - 1,371 (0.93%)
level 13 - 1,110 (0.75%)
level 14 - 899 (0.61%)
level 15 - 728 (0.49%)
level 16 - 590 (0.40%)
level 17 - 478 (0.32%)
level 18 - 387 (0.26%)
level 19 - 314 (0.21%)
level 20 - 254 (0.17%)
level 21 - 206 (0.14%)
level 22 - 167 (0.11%)
level 23 - 135 (0.09%)
level 24 - 109 (0.07%)
level 25 - 89 (0.06%)
level 26 - 72 (0.05%)
level 27 - 58 (0.04%)
level 28 - 47 (0.03%)
level 29 - 38 (0.03%)
level 30 - 31 (0.02%)
level 30 geezer - 279 (0.19%)
 


Seasong :

Woog! Uh, wow!


Please forgive me if I step on any toes. This is a topic I've been playing with as well, and I wanted to share some of my results.
No toes to be stepped on, at least on my part. And sharing results is exactly what this thread is about.

I think I should correct a small misconception, due primarily to my poor choice of words.

The "mortality rates" I quote are actually "advancement rates", and list the fraction of people at each level that advance to the next level.

The remainder retire, or are struck with some debilitating injury, or even die, or some such. The proportion of the various causes varies between the PC and NPC classes, but for our purposes here, I think they can all be lumped together.

And a few questions:
What's the rational behind the "rarity numbers", the micro-urb ratio, and the major urb breakdown?
What's the underlying formula/calculation for your pop chart, and your urbanization chart?

Also, you are aware that at LV 3, the max skill rank is 6, yes? Or does your max skill a total bonus, and not just ranks?

And your urbanization ratio - what era is that based on? US 1865 farmer/consumer ratio was about 4:1, which would correspond to an urbanization of 20% (if I understand things correctly).
 

Oh, fundgie.

How do we account for the multi-classers?

Should we just assume these are accounted for already in the advancement rates? Or do we need to explicitly call them out in the charts?
 

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