(OOC) The Dog Days of Doom

[FitzTheRuke]

If it's any help, I'm sure that Snarf is right about Hunters Mark. I'm pretty sure that it once worked like Taran thought, but it's been Snarf's way for awhile now. Easy enough to miss the change, as I can't say I remember precisely when it happened.

 

[Steve Gorak]

Hey guys,

Don't forget you have advantage on your attack rolls from being unseen in the illusory fog!
Cheers,

SG

 

[Steve Gorak]

Hey @TaranTheWanderer, just fyi, when Benny casts an illusion over an ally, the intent is always to have the illusion cover them so they are unseen (intent is to cause disadvantage to enemy attacks). I was probably not clear enough, but a simple wall between us and them would have caused allies to also have disadvantage, since the ennemies would have been unseen, which is not my intent. So in this case, the zombie couldn’t have looked over the wall because she would have seen more wall& stone and the target would have been unseen. I’ll make a point to be more descriptive in the future so the illusion is clearer. Also, the fact we were bunched together was beneficial, in future combat situations, this will likely be significantly trickier because ally line of sight will be affected.
I hope I don’t deserve an anvil, yet!
Cheers,

Sg

 

[Steve Gorak]

The next illusion will be a big ass rock that covers everyone!

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Hey @TaranTheWanderer, just fyi, when Benny casts an illusion over an ally, the intent is always to have the illusion cover them so they are unseen (intent is to cause disadvantage to enemy attacks). I was probably not clear enough, but a simple wall between us and them would have caused allies to also have disadvantage, since the ennemies would have been unseen, which is not my intent. So in this case, the zombie couldn’t have looked over the wall because she would have seen more wall& stone and the target would have been unseen. I’ll make a point to be more descriptive in the future so the illusion is clearer. Also, the fact we were bunched together was beneficial, in future combat situations, this will likely be significantly trickier because ally line of sight will be affected.
I hope I don’t deserve an anvil, yet!
Cheers,

Sg

It was clear but they rolled so badly that it really didn’t make a difference so it was mostly just me describing a terrible roll.

I might say that it takes one round of interacting with the illusion to see through it. Like, the round you interact with it, it seems real until the end of your turn. Maybe? But maybe not because then you can just cast it right on enemies.

The issue I have is, if you cause a wall to appear on top of someone, the person looking at it is going to wonder how a wall is on top of someone which might make them disbelieve?

OTOH, if the wall is 10 feet thick, the person in the wall interacts with it and the person outside can’t tell how thick the wall is, so it would work.

But anything out of the ordinary will make people question it. Like arrows flying out and through the wall. Honestly, fog is the best option unless you are trying to prevent people from entering it.

My feeling is you are just going to cast it every round, give everyone advantage or disadvantage, then the illusion gets disbelieved and then you just recast it again next round.

 

[Steve Gorak]

It was clear but they rolled so badly that it really didn’t make a difference so it was mostly just me describing a terrible roll.

I might say that it takes one round of interacting with the illusion to see through it. Like, the round you interact with it, it seems real until the end of your turn. Maybe? But maybe not because then you can just cast it right on enemies.

The issue I have is, if you cause a wall to appear on top of someone, the person looking at it is going to wonder how a wall is on top of someone which might make them disbelieve?

OTOH, if the wall is 10 feet thick, the person in the wall interacts with it and the person outside can’t tell how thick the wall is, so it would work.

But anything out of the ordinary will make people question it. Like arrows flying out and through the wall. Honestly, fog is the best option unless you are trying to prevent people from entering it.

My feeling is you are just going to cast it every round, give everyone advantage or disadvantage, then the illusion gets disbelieved and then you just recast it again next round.

Well, this is why I want to have a honest discussion with you. I wanted to try something different than the traditional eldrich blast warlock, and I’m finding that this invocation is really really good. At the same time I don’t want to piss off my dm!

It’s almost as if the warlock has to spam something, either eldrich blast or this evocation…

Now my understanding of the disbelief mechanic is that you can know that it’s an illusion but still can’t see though it. You may change that, and that’s fair enough. I just want to reach a gentlemen’s agreement so I feel that the actions are useful without inducing a storm of anvils.
What do you think? Maybe 1st attack out has advantage, but counts as an interaction if the ennemies see it (maybe they need to do a perception check, more difficult for projectiles, easier for melee). And a traditional interaction or study action is an auto see though? And for sure I want to use it a lot.
Another way of seeing this is as a baseline, 1 action can give advantage to someone through the help action. Now, my character used a precious invocation, and can do a bit more. We just need to carve that out so it works for you.

Let’s find a win-win.
Cheers,

Sg

 

[Kobold Stew]

Where were you all when I was trying to have a discussion about illusions on these boards last month? I have thoughts, which I'm happy to share, but since it doesn't affect my character directly, I'd want to be clear up front that I think the rules are not clear, and I recognize finding a balance is tough. I know where I stand, but that only holds when I'm a DM. Some of the people who did interact acted like the sky was falling.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Well, this is why I want to have a honest discussion with you. I wanted to try something different than the traditional eldrich blast warlock, and I’m finding that this invocation is really really good. At the same time I don’t want to piss off my dm!

It’s almost as if the warlock has to spam something, either eldrich blast or this evocation…

Now my understanding of the disbelief mechanic is that you can know that it’s an illusion but still can’t see though it. You may change that, and that’s fair enough. I just want to reach a gentlemen’s agreement so I feel that the actions are useful without inducing a storm of anvils.
What do you think? Maybe 1st attack out has advantage, but counts as an interaction if the ennemies see it (maybe they need to do a perception check, more difficult for projectiles, easier for melee). And a traditional interaction or study action is an auto see though? And for sure I want to use it a lot.
Another way of seeing this is as a baseline, 1 action can give advantage to someone through the help action. Now, my character used a precious invocation, and can do a bit more. We just need to carve that out so it works for you.

Let’s find a win-win.
Cheers,

Sg

I’m not sweating too much about it. Just wrapping my head around it so I can be consistent.

This is how I’m ruling it so far:

1. If they(enemies) touch it or attack into it at all, it goes away

2. If they interact with it in such a way as to make something weird happen, it goes away.

Example: they shoot an arrow at an illusory wall and it goes through.

I’m considering that a physical interaction.

Where it gets weird:

Shooting into illusory fog. Arrows should go through fog and magical fog is a thing.

I’m thinking, unless you use your action every turn to make the fog roil and move, they might get suspicious and use their action to “investigate” and get a save. The tricky part is deciding when getting suspicious happens.

In the end, spending an action to give people advantage isn’t a big deal because you could spend it attacking instead.

Where were you all when I was trying to have a discussion about illusions on these boards last month? I have thoughts, which I'm happy to share, but since it doesn't affect my character directly, I'd want to be clear up front that I think the rules are not clear, and I recognize finding a balance is tough. I know where I stand, but that only holds when I'm a DM. Some of the people who did interact acted like the sky was falling.

Ooh, I read one thread on it but not this one. I will!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I agree that it can be tricky to allow - just the right amount - of leeway when it comes to illusions so that they are cool and worth using, but not so much that they are a PitA. I think a Silent Image shroud all the time probably goes close to the latter, in particular if its always in the style of "drop it over allies so that they always have advantage", but then, I wouldn't want it to never work, either, and I'm heavily inclined toward following player intent, whenever reasonable.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I forgot:

Having someone attack through a wall will probably ruin the illusion right away. I’m not sure it makes sense to give someone advantage on an attack and then also force the enemy to spend an action to roll to investigate and disbelieve.

Doing that more than once in a combat probably won’t work? Idk. Zombies have an Int of 3.