Fixing the fighter: the surge problem

cmad1977 · Oct 25, 2015

Wait. Threads have shown us the problem? Well, there's no one I trust more than hyperbolic, myopic RPG thread posters.
Clearly the fighter has a problem that MUST be fixed by us as opposed to the professional game designers who had their product tested umpteen times.

Quartz · Oct 25, 2015

JValeur said:
Even without damage mod - which the OP says nothing about - your GWFS damage at level 1 goes from 11.33 to 19.66, where a TWF has 13. Now there is 0 reason to TWF, even at low levels, if you are a fighter.

Why are you assuming GWFS? There's not always room for a heavy weapon. For instance in town you're not going to be carrying your 2H weapon around, but two daggers could easily be hidden.

Polearm Mastery bonus attack will deal 7.5 at max level, which is still less than 8.33.

A greatsword doesn't give you Reach, but a polearm does.

JValeur · Oct 25, 2015

I am just looking at what people would play. They tend to not go for the vastly inferior options. Even just a duelist build would deal 9.5 + 4.5 damage (or 6.5 if you add dualist bonus damage to both), as opposed to 6.5 + 6.5, and then you also get +2 ac. So superior in both damage and defense. Your 'buff' completely gimps TWF, several feats, and multiclass options. I don't think there can be any doubt about that, I'm sorry.

Plus, I still don't think you're right saying fighters are weak. If you wanna buff them, throw in an extra ASI or something.

the Jester · Oct 25, 2015

Quartz said:
As umpteen threads have shown, there's a problem with the fighter.

I remain unconvinced that there is a problem, and I don't think the fact that there's a bunch of threads about it to be very convincing evidence. But I haven't seen a fighter above about 3rd level yet, so I could be wrong.

That said, if you feel the fighter needs a fix, this sounds like a poor patch; it basically favors certain builds (I use a greatsword!) over others (I use two weapons in melee!).

UnadvisedGoose445 · Oct 27, 2015

The extra ASI is massive, in terms of power. Feats are (or can be) very potent, and getting to max your attack stat by level 6 instead of 8 contributes a lot. Second Wind can be a nice way to stay in the fight. Maneuvers and extra crits, plus the extra ASI('s), really make up for plenty in terms of differences between the other classes.

Quartz · Oct 27, 2015

UnadvisedGoose445 said:
The extra ASI is massive, in terms of power. Feats are (or can be) very potent, and getting to max your attack stat by level 6 instead of 8 contributes a lot. Second Wind can be a nice way to stay in the fight. Maneuvers and extra crits, plus the extra ASI('s), really make up for plenty in terms of differences between the other classes.

Only one version of the fighter gets extra crits, and the number of extra crits is trivial. Also the fighter only gets extra ASIs at 6th and 14th level. So you have to wait until 6th level before you're statistically better than other PCs, and then wait until 14th level - by which time many games have ended - to get even better. The fighter needs an ability to counter the surge issue.

Ahrimon · Oct 27, 2015

Fighters are fine IMO. Very vanilla, but just fine from a power level perspective.

UnadvisedGoose445 · Oct 28, 2015

Quartz said:
Only one version of the fighter gets extra crits, and the number of extra crits is trivial. Also the fighter only gets extra ASIs at 6th and 14th level. So you have to wait until 6th level before you're statistically better than other PCs, and then wait until 14th level - by which time many games have ended - to get even better. The fighter needs an ability to counter the surge issue.

At what levels are you looking to compare? Honestly... Like level 6? And to which classes exactly? The Paladin? Considering you can use 6th level to grab things like Great Weapon Master or Polearm Mastery, that will bump your DPR considerably with extra bonus actions, greater reach, the ability to decrease accuracy for a major spike in damage, etc. Or take that extra bump in Strength, and you're more accurate and doing more damage than your Paladin can afford to, and then you pick up your feat at level 8, where you still have that up on him/her. Honestly I think that's why combat feats are so strong in 5e, personally. Given that, and Action Surge coming back on a short rest as opposed to spell slots for smites on long rests, I think you have a plenty balanced adventuring day.

Salamandyr · Oct 30, 2015

In a Basic Game, I think the Champion holds his own with the thief, the Evoker, and the Life Cleric. But stacked against the Paladin's smites, and the Ranger's Hunter's Mark & Collossus Slayer, the Eldritch Knight (and probably the Champion) felt underwhelming. It was a tough character, best AC, and could pull out the occasional AOE like Thunderwave, but the damage of those AOE's wasn't impressive. An Adrenaline Surge once every other combat just didn't have the oomph that Smiting and Hunter's Mark had.

However, the Battlemaster looks like it can compete with the Paladin; Expertise dice, refreshing on a short rest, are usable about as often as the Paladin's Smite. So it looks like, if I wanted control over exactly when I bring the pain and on what, I was looking at the wrong subclass.

I just wish there was a way to get the Champion's 7th level athleticism ability on the Battlemaster.

Salamandyr · Oct 30, 2015

Thinking more about this; someone mentioned above that the fighter gives up all utility outside of combat (in the Exploration and Social pillars of the game). This is not exactly true. The fighter has the same skill access as other characters, and for a strength based fighter with training in Athletics there is basically no physical obstacle he cannot overcome.

But it is true that there is no way for him to be the "the best" at those things. The Barbarian gets advantage on Strength checks, and Bards and Rogues get expertise, and magic often negates the need to make a skill check in the first place. There is little reason beyond vanity to pump Charisma, so even trained, the fighter's social skills will be behind (though not far behind another character for whom social skills are important, but not central to their character--like a rogue who hasn't designated expertise to social skills).

What would be a good way to remedy this? Is it even necessary?