D&D General Fixing the Offense Tunnel Vision problem

[GrimCo]

You can use a rapier with strength.

Sure. But than it's just longsword without versatile property.

In 2024 they are not.

I'm aware.

Grapple is not a joke.

Compared to 3.5 version, it is. I mean, grappled creature can use 2h weapon or cast spells no problem. Hell, grappled condition doesn't even provoke concentration check.

Why are we speaking about 2014 anyway?

Cause this is labeled as D&D general, not 2024?

Play as you like. Overkill is not bad. Damage dealong is not bad.
But a surprising amount of creatures are immune to charm and sleep btw.

Yep. And surprising amount of creatures are also high dex or high str so they can negate attempts to push, shove and grapple.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sure. But than it's just longsword without versatile property.

It has vex. Also nice. And can be used with shield and defensive duellist.

I'm aware.

Compared to 3.5 version, it is. I mean, grappled creature can use 2h weapon or cast spells no problem. Hell, grappled condition doesn't even provoke concentration check.

If you have the grappler feat, it does.

Cause this is labeled as D&D general, not 2024?

Yeah. But we have different ways of doing grapples.

Yep. And surprising amount of creatures are also high dex or high str so they can negate attempts to push, shove and grapple.

Many spellcasters are not.

Yeah. Whatever. Play as you like.

 

[Sorinth]

I never got that far, but from what you and others described it is a fight where mooks are niuisance that just heal the boss AND can be easily trivialized with I Win Button spells and focusing fire on the boss.

They provide an Unstoppable charge, and each Unstoppable charge reduces incoming damage to 1 and then gets removed. The minions are renewing the 12 charges every round, so basically if you don't deal with the minions the first you need to deal damage 12 times each and every round before you can actually start to hurt her.

Now sure there are still ways to just focus fire her and ignore the minions, magic missile takes off 1 charge for each missile so that's probably the most common tactic. But if you just run in with no real plan let's just swing away with DPR it's going to be a lot tougher and many players found the fight impossible to win until they were told the strategies to employ. And for the record this isn't meant to be the perfect example, it's not, it simply shows that you can have minions be impactful while it's still clearly a boss fight.

In actual D&D spells/abilities, even something as simple as low HP low AC minion who casts Shield of Faith on the boss. You could ignore the minion and focus fire the boss, however that minion is probably providing more effective HP then he's worth and the PCs would win the fight faster by first taking out that minion so that they can then chew through the boss HP faster.

 

[HatWearingFool]

If you have the grappler feat, it does.

I must be missing something (probably am), or we are talking about different feats: https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/1789147-grappler?msockid=39862af5f84f6e6231093fc0f92e6f5b

 

[Cergorach]

Imho in D&D5e 2024 it's about DPR vs. the amount of resources (HP, limited use abilities, spells, one use equipment, etc.) used.

Last Sunday we played a game with a 8th level Rogue (assassin) and Sorceror (Wildmage). Expending a spell (Fog Cloud) was way more effective then casting a Fireball, it got us advantage on all rolls and the NPCs all had disadvantage (compliments from the Skulker feat). Then using tricks to control movement within the cloud we could take our time doing damage. On one hand, having folks have disadvantage means more chance for a fumble (and me using a reaction to attack on their turn with backstab damage), it might still mean I get more often hit by attacks and thus damage. The Rogue's HP pool is limited, thus I need to find a balance between doing damage, getting damaged, and folks trying to escape the fog cloud... Which opponents to take out first, when to hide in the cloud and when to make noise to attract attackers...

In another party we play with it's all about high AC, supporting others to not get hit, etc. Doing damage is important, but it tends to be secondary to not getting hit. Sometimes doing a high amount of damage shortens the combat (even by a little), so less hits against the players. It's a different kind of balance.

 

[billd91]

I must be missing something (probably am), or we are talking about different feats: https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/1789147-grappler?msockid=39862af5f84f6e6231093fc0f92e6f5b

Technically, I'd say the Grappler feat doesn't directly cause a concentration check when the character is grappling. However, the feat does allow the character to grapple while scoring a hit with unarmed strike once a turn - which would impose a concentration check. So, it's more like it enables it with an option rather than directly and automatically causes it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Imho in D&D5e 2024 it's about DPR vs. the amount of resources (HP, limited use abilities, spells, one use equipment, etc.) used.

Last Sunday we played a game with a 8th level Rogue (assassin) and Sorceror (Wildmage). Expending a spell (Fog Cloud) was way more effective then casting a Fireball, it got us advantage on all rolls and the NPCs all had disadvantage (compliments from the Skulker feat). Then using tricks to control movement within the cloud we could take our time doing damage. On one hand, having folks have disadvantage means more chance for a fumble (and me using a reaction to attack on their turn with backstab damage), it might still mean I get more often hit by attacks and thus damage. The Rogue's HP pool is limited, thus I need to find a balance between doing damage, getting damaged, and folks trying to escape the fog cloud... Which opponents to take out first, when to hide in the cloud and when to make noise to attract attackers...

In another party we play with it's all about high AC, supporting others to not get hit, etc. Doing damage is important, but it tends to be secondary to not getting hit. Sometimes doing a high amount of damage shortens the combat (even by a little), so less hits against the players. It's a different kind of balance.

I.ho the metavis casters control, martial DPS.
Casters struggle to kill stuff comparatively. They lack the save or dies 3E ones had and 5.5 ramped up monster GP even more.

Team effort. Debuffing/control reduces incoming danage as well.

 

[Kurotowa]

Casters struggle to kill stuff comparatively. They lack the save or dies 3E ones had and 5.5 ramped up monster GP even more.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that's by design. Low caster damage is a necessary incentive to make control spells attractive. I'm currently playing an Artificer, and using my action to attack is solid but not amazing value. Which means it's often worth it to cast Faerie Fire or Web, so that my party's Fighter and Paladin can reliably land their big hits and our Rogue has even more options for Sneak Attacks. If my own damage was on the level of the martial PCs, I'd be a lot more reluctant to do anything but try to deal that damage.

 

[HatWearingFool]

In another party we play with it's all about high AC, supporting others to not get hit, etc. Doing damage is important, but it tends to be secondary to not getting hit. Sometimes doing a high amount of damage shortens the combat (even by a little), so less hits against the players. It's a different kind of balance.

If bounded accuracy is working you shouldn't be able to get your AC high enough to be too much of a problem. In the 3e day's it was certainly possible to focus on your AC to the point that only a 20 hit you, but if bounded accuracy worked (and it seems to have) your enemies should still have a decent ability to hit you.

How high have you gotten your AC?

 

[HatWearingFool]

Just thinking about the AC thing... I wonder how much of this issue is because of bounded accuracy? Thanks to bounded accuracy players should land hits more often than enemies. Once you know you will hit your opponent more and it's a race to 0 why not stand toe to toe and swing. They are supposed to hit ~50% of the time (I think) and players are supposed to hit ~65-75% of the time (again memory hazy).

If bounded accuracy is working (a big IF, but I haven't seen any obvious ways of breaking AC) so you can't manipulate the numbers much...

I guess I'm saying bounded accuracy is supposed to ensure the odds favor the players mathematically without worrying about tatics, etc... right?

I don't I'm probably wrong but I was thinking about it after the comment on focusing on AC