D&D General Fixing the Offense Tunnel Vision problem

[Distracted DM]

If bounded accuracy is working you shouldn't be able to get your AC high enough to be too much of a problem. In the 3e day's it was certainly possible to focus on your AC to the point that only a 20 hit you, but if bounded accuracy worked (and it seems to have) your enemies should still have a decent ability to hit you.

How high have you gotten your AC?

Players that're optimization-minded will get their ACs up to silly levels, especially if all the splatbooks and multiclassing etc. are allowed. But even with core book stuff, it's quite easy for a tanky PC to get their AC up to the mid-20s in later tier 2 play. Obviously that's not going to be only-20s-hit, but toss in a few spells from teammates or additional frequent-use items and you're hoping you can threaten them with other methods. Unfortunately I've had situations where well-regarded 3pp or other 5e products make the situation even worse, which has caused me to tighten the reins on what content I allow in by default.

On the design-side, bounded accuracy hits trouble with those not-so-edge cases if the DM is trying to play with default monster math, partially because monsters rely on CR for their to-hit.

 

[HatWearingFool]

Players that're optimization-minded will get their ACs up to silly levels, especially if all the splatbooks and multiclassing etc. are allowed. But even with core book stuff, it's quite easy for a tanky PC to get their AC up to the mid-20s in later tier 2 play. Obviously that's not going to be only-20s-hit, but toss in a few spells from teammates or additional frequent-use items and you're hoping you can threaten them with other methods. Unfortunately I've had situations where well-regarded 3pp or other 5e products make the situation even worse, which has caused me to tighten the reins on what content I allow in by default.

On the design-side, bounded accuracy hits trouble with those not-so-edge cases if the DM is trying to play with default monster math, partially because monsters rely on CR for their to-hit.

I can imagine issues with 3rd party stuff but it seems like WOTC’s “fix” was just to ensure almost nothing stacks for AC. And looking at the phb I don’t see much to really crank it up (except for a round or two). Just thinking about my 4th level cleric it doesn’t seem like I have options to get my AC past 21, but I admit I’m probably missing stuff.

I don’t have the ebberon or forgotten realms books yet, did they add stuff that really spikes it?

 

[jmartkdr2]

Players that're optimization-minded will get their ACs up to silly levels, especially if all the splatbooks and multiclassing etc. are allowed. But even with core book stuff, it's quite easy for a tanky PC to get their AC up to the mid-20s in later tier 2 play. Obviously that's not going to be only-20s-hit, but toss in a few spells from teammates or additional frequent-use items and you're hoping you can threaten them with other methods. Unfortunately I've had situations where well-regarded 3pp or other 5e products make the situation even worse, which has caused me to tighten the reins on what content I allow in by default.

On the design-side, bounded accuracy hits trouble with those not-so-edge cases if the DM is trying to play with default monster math, partially because monsters rely on CR for their to-hit.

I can imagine issues with 3rd party stuff but it seems like WOTC’s “fix” was just to ensure almost nothing stacks for AC. And looking at the phb I don’t see much to really crank it up (except for a round or two). Just thinking about my 4th level cleric it doesn’t seem like I have options to get my AC past 21, but I admit I’m probably missing stuff.

I don’t have the ebberon or forgotten realms books yet, did they add stuff that really spikes it?

IIRC the meta-answer is to play an EK fighter with heavy armor and a shield, possibly the Defense fighting style, and then use magic to boost defenses even more (shield spell, other defensive spells, etc.) The base can get quite high (21 before any magic items, 22 on a warforged heavy fighter) and spells can temporarily boost it much higher.

The downside is the metagaming the dm must do - how quickly do enemies figure out you're a) almost impossible to hit and b) not really doing much damage compared to the other pcs and so not really a threat. You're the opposite of a glass cannon, you're a tank with a standard rifle for a main gun.

This is why paladins are generally considered better: you can hit that 21 just as easily and have several defensive spells like shield of faith. But if enemies try to ignore you you can smite instead, making them need to deal with you. In other words, more offense is still the better build according to the meta.

(Of course in actual play I find these things to be very minor considerations at most tables, since it has nothing to do with the roleplaying part of the hobby which is at least half.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I must be missing something (probably am), or we are talking about different feats: https://www.dndbeyond.com/feats/1789147-grappler?msockid=39862af5f84f6e6231093fc0f92e6f5b

Oh. Sorry. It is the unarmed combat style that does automatic damage on grapple. My bad.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just thinking about the AC thing... I wonder how much of this issue is because of bounded accuracy? Thanks to bounded accuracy players should land hits more often than enemies. Once you know you will hit your opponent more and it's a race to 0 why not stand toe to toe and swing. They are supposed to hit ~50% of the time (I think) and players are supposed to hit ~65-75% of the time (again memory hazy).

If bounded accuracy is working (a big IF, but I haven't seen any obvious ways of breaking AC) so you can't manipulate the numbers much...

I guess I'm saying bounded accuracy is supposed to ensure the odds favor the players mathematically without worrying about tatics, etc... right?

I don't I'm probably wrong but I was thinking about it after the comment on focusing on AC

You can get your AC up to the mid w0s if you cherry pick and multiclass enough.

AC 23 is around the top you can get at lower levels. Full plate, artificer, warforged, shield of faith. + 1 shield for AC24. Lvl2.

Not counting things like shield spell. Later on its 3s or 40s.

Mid 20s real game vs theorycrafting.

 

[Distracted DM]

I can imagine issues with 3rd party stuff but it seems like WOTC’s “fix” was just to ensure almost nothing stacks for AC. And looking at the phb I don’t see much to really crank it up (except for a round or two). Just thinking about my 4th level cleric it doesn’t seem like I have options to get my AC past 21, but I admit I’m probably missing stuff.

I don’t have the ebberon or forgotten realms books yet, did they add stuff that really spikes it?

As a 4th level cleric I'm surprised you'd be getting ac that high at all, unless you're including shield of faith.

But tier 2 is where stuff starts to take off, and where the PCs can take on big stuff with big plunder deliveries. Magic armor and magic shields, cloaks of protection, rings of protection, the defense fighting style, shield of faith, all of these things add up. And then if you make the mistake of adding a ring of spell storing in there, the few times you ARE going to hit that PC they can just shield it or use some other feature to turn it into a miss.

The classic answer to high AC characters is, ofc, target other things to threaten them- whether it's dex saves, or mental saves, or their teammates... but splatbooks can shore up the save weaknesses, and killing the rest of the party while the tank(s) are a little scratched up really isn't fun for anyone. Of course the more "advanced" answer is don't threaten the party at all, threaten their objective, add objectives to every fight ... but man, the GM is really having to do some heavy lifting here to make up for (what are IMO) system issues.

Lol sorry for the whole spiel, this is a sore spot for me with 5e its offshoots like A5E and ToV. 5e24 actually tried to address this by just ratcheting up the stats for monsters, which is what I've had to do in tier 3 and 4 games where things can get really silly... but I'm not wholly satisfied with that solution, it feels like a band-aid and it's a little kludgy.

 

[Cergorach]

I.ho the metavis casters control, martial DPS.

I played a Warlock previously that did very consistent damage

How high have you gotten your AC?

Up to 24 with spells, add regular disadvantage to that and things get pretty darned hard to hit... What is even more fun is that certain folks can get into attack range, attack, disengage and move out of the creatures movement+attack range... Folks were running pretty nasty combos in a three person party, and now we found out we can also do that in a two person party...

 

[tetrasodium]

IMO the real problem is that 5e broke too many ofthe "god wizard" type buff/debuff & control spells or nullified their function (ie bulls strength/cats grace/etc). Some of them still exist like the ones I mentioned, but their functionality was broken and the party no longer actually needs or benefits enough overall effectiveness from them to make it so nobody cares that Bob will probably miss with a crossbow/sling. Other spells like web solid fog and the various control/debuff spells still technically exist and are functional, but they are both too effective and too unimportant (ie web went from 5foot steps to speed zero or totally ignored. Others like solid fog are just gone. Add to that the shift from "oh wait yeaci have acid splash prepared as a cantrip in case we see trolls like this" to unlimited powerful reliable at will cantrips and it's a bit of a mess with any non dpelr builds being mostly nostalgia

 

[Zardnaar]

I played a Warlock previously that did very consistent damage

Up to 24 with spells, add regular disadvantage to that and things get pretty darned hard to hit... What is even more fun is that certain folks can get into attack range, attack, disengage and move out of the creatures movement+attack range... Folks were running pretty nasty combos in a three person party, and now we found out we can also do that in a two person party...

Warlock was high damage. Its kind of the baseline now. And thats a "high" damage caster.

 

[Kurotowa]

Warlock was high damage. Its kind of the baseline now. And thats a "high" damage caster.

Also Warlocks are the least castery caster in 5e. The fewest available spell slots to use in a given fight, and the most powerful resourceless basic attack. Design wise they're half way to a martial.