D&D 5E Fixing the terrible Grapple feat

[CTurbo]

Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible. Even the Tavern Brawler feat is a better feat for grappling.

The Grapple feat has 2 features.

1. You have advantage for attacks against a creature you are grappling.
2. You can pin a creatures but both you and the creature gain the restrained condition.

Without the feat, you can already grapple a creature prone and gain advantage for attacks against it. This just allows advantage whether they're prone or not.
As far as pinning a creature, I don't see why this could not already be accomplished without this feat. Am I missing something? As a DM, I would already allow a player to make a str check to restrain a creature that the player is already grappling.

So......... this is an easy candidate for worst feat in the book. What can we do to make it better without breaking things?

The simple answer is to let you increase your str +1 and call it a day. But that's boring, and I believe that if a player wants to make a grappler build, they deserve a full feat.

So here are a few of options for a 3rd feature.

1. You can use your bonus action to make a melee attack against a creature you are grappling.
2. You impose disadvantage on str checks made to break your grapple.
3. You can use your action to disarm a creature you are grappling.


What do you guys think? Anybody have a better option?



I like feats. They really help you give your character some character

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible.

No. Don't do that, it undermines whatever point you do have to claim there is no opposing opinion.

On to your points:

Grappling a creature that is prone requires, assuming you have done both yourself, more actions or attacks dedicated to the process than getting advantage by way of just grabbing does.

Being able to use 1 action to grab, then 1 action to attack with advantage, rather than both those actions plus another to render your grabbed target prone is a large benefit - especially when it means the difference between your opponent having a chance to escape before the attack or not.

Another way of looking at it: If you have a 70% chance to grab, and a 70% chance to shove a creature prone, you have a 49% chance to succeed at both and get your attack with advantage (again, assuming they don't escape between actions). If you have the feat, you have a 70% chance to get your attack with advantage.

As for pinning, what you are missing is that the rules don't support being able to apply the restrained condition without the feat - even if you as a DM would allow that. You can't hold your own rulings against the general rules of the game.

So all said, change the feat for your game if you think it needs a boost because of your style or rulings as a DM - you don't have to prove, or even claim, that anyone else thinks the feat is terrible in order to do so.

 

[jaelis]

Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself? I think that part of the feat has issues. The first part though, I agree with Aaron, is OK.

Fixing the pinning part is tricky though because you don't want to make grappling overpowered. Maybe give advantage when you try to shove a creature you are grappling? Or maybe let you make a grapple check in place of an attack, and if successful you deal your unarmed strike damage?

 

[Horwath]

Maybe just give +1 to str or con and treat is as "half-feat". Even then it's not that good.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself?

The restrained condition applies disadvantage on Dexterity throws while a combination of the prone and grappled conditions doesn't. The restrained condition also gives advantage to all attack rolls against the creature regardless of range they are made from, while the prone condition only gives advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet and actually gives disadvantage outside of that limited range.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Ok so I think we can all agree that the Grapple feat is pretty terrible. Even the Tavern Brawler feat is a better feat for grappling.

The Grapple feat has 2 features.

1. You have advantage for attacks against a creature you are grappling.
2. You can pin a creatures but both you and the creature gain the restrained condition.

Without the feat, you can already grapple a creature prone and gain advantage for attacks against it. This just allows advantage whether they're prone or not.
As far as pinning a creature, I don't see why this could not already be accomplished without this feat. Am I missing something? As a DM, I would already allow a player to make a str check to restrain a creature that the player is already grappling.

So......... this is an easy candidate for worst feat in the book. What can we do to make it better without breaking things?

The simple answer is to let you increase your str +1 and call it a day. But that's boring, and I believe that if a player wants to make a grappler build, they deserve a full feat.

So here are a few of options for a 3rd feature.

1. You can use your bonus action to make a melee attack against a creature you are grappling.
2. You impose disadvantage on str checks made to break your grapple.
3. You can use your action to disarm a creature you are grappling.


What do you guys think? Anybody have a better option?



I like feats. They really help you give your character some character

Really, how is tavern brrawler better? You only get the bonus action grapple if you ise an improvised weapon. That's just a d4 of damage, when I can use my d8 longsword at advantage. I looked at this when making my goliath bard.

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[KahlessNestor]

Re pinning though, isn't proning the target basically equivalent, but also you don't take the penalty yourself? I think that part of the feat has issues. The first part though, I agree with Aaron, is OK.

Fixing the pinning part is tricky though because you don't want to make grappling overpowered. Maybe give advantage when you try to shove a creature you are grappling? Or maybe let you make a grapple check in place of an attack, and if successful you deal your unarmed strike damage?

Actually grapple and shove are considered attacks, not Actions, so they do replace one attack. So if you have 2 attacks, grapple for the first, shove prone with advantage for the second. If you have a third, wail away at advantage, or next turn do so. As well as the rest of the melee allies.

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[Hawk Diesel]

At my table, I've changed the 3rd bullet point to:

-When you use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity, you can choose to attempt a grapple rather than make a melee attack.

 

[S'mon]

This all seems like stuff I'd allow normally. I don't think this feat is salvageable sorry.

 

[mellored]

* you can make a grapple or shove check as a bonus action.
* You can grapple as an OA.
* You can grapple creatures 1 size larger than normal.

 

[KahlessNestor]

At my table, I've changed the 3rd bullet point to:

-When you use your reaction to make an attack of opportunity, you can choose to attempt a grapple rather than make a melee attack.

You can already do this with the normal grapple rules. Grapple replaces 1 attack, not your whole action.

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[KahlessNestor]

* you to make a grapple or shove check as a bonus action.
* You can grapple as an OA.
* You can grapple creatures 1 size larger than normal.

You can already graplle as an OA, and you can already grapple creatures one size larger. This is all part of basic grapple rules.

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[Olrox17]

You can already graplle as an OA, and you can already grapple creatures one size larger. This is all part of basic grapple rules.

Grappling specifically calls for an Attack Action, and opportunity attacks are not an Attack Action (ironically enough). Also, I think mellored meant to say huge creatures (since normally you can grab up to large sized creatures, one size larger than normal means huge).

 

[KahlessNestor]

Grappling specifically calls for an Attack Action, and opportunity attacks are not an Attack Action (ironically enough). Also, I think mellored meant to say huge creatures (since normally you can grab up to large sized creatures, one size larger than normal means huge).

It also says it replaces one attack. Seems like a grey area for DM ruling, not changing a feat. Or kick it up to Crawford. Don't see why it couldn't apply, unless you object to a poor man's Sentinel.

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[DEFCON 1]

For my Curse of Strahd campaigns I had PCs start at level 0 with no class selected, but everyone started with a feat of some kind. And because they were new PCs I wanted to take all of the +1 ability bonuses out of some of the feats, which meant adapting or making some more powerful. As a result, I ended up merging many feats together and adjusting them to give a more comprehensive characteristic for a character who selected them. In this particular case, I actually merged parts of both Grappler and Tavern Brawler together to create a stronger unarmed or weapon-less battler character concept:

BRAWLER
- You are proficient with improvised weapons and unarmed strikes.
- Your unarmed strikes and improvised weapon attacks use a d4 for damage.
- When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon on your turn you can use a Bonus action to make an unarmed strike or attempt to grapple the target.
- Whenever you make a STR (Athletics) check to grapple a creature or escape a grapple, you are considered proficient in the Athletics skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check.
- You have Advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
- You can use your Action to try to pin a creature grappled by you-- make another grapple check and if successful both you and your target are Restrained until the grapple ends.

This will probably seem OP'd, but bear in mind a lot of the other feats in the PH were reworked and made stronger as well. And in both of my current games, a PC has this feat but it has not even come close to causing any issues because they both focus mainly on their weapons primarily (there is a Blood Hunter and a Barbarian that have them), and only use the Brawler abilities when they make sense or they lose their weapons. I'm sure other more tactically-inclined players might find exploits in the feat, but my games do not include players who go that deep into the rules to try and find them. Thus, this combo feat is flavorful and a nice addition to the PCs that have it.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It also says it replaces one attack. Seems like a grey area for DM ruling, not changing a feat. Or kick it up to Crawford. Don't see why it couldn't apply, unless you object to a poor man's Sentinel.

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It actually has already been addressed in Sage Advice (see SA Compendium pg 10):

Can an opportunity attack be used to make a grapple or a shove?
Grappling/shoving are part of the Attack action (PH, 195), not an opportunity attack. Take the Ready action to grapple/shove outside your turn.

 

[Bayonet]

I've house-ruled Grappler so that, in addition to advantage on all Grappling related checks, Grapplers can

1) do 1d4+str dmg on a 'shove' (reskinned as a throw/slam/hard takedown, etc.)

2) Attempt to strangle an enemy. Grapplers must first roll to immobilize (restrain) the enemy, then pass three consecutive Grapple checks. Strangled enemy is brought to 0hp rendered unconscious. Killed, if Grappler maintains the choke for another round.

3) Attempt to cripple an enemy. Grappler must first roll to restrain an enemy, then must make a contested Athletics check to attack a limb. Success means the enemy takes 1d4 + str dmg and is under some sort of crippling effect (only one arm can be used, disadvantage on physical attacks, -10' of movement, etc.)

 

[CTurbo]

I've house-ruled Grappler so that, in addition to advantage on all Grappling related checks, Grapplers can

1) do 1d4+str dmg on a 'shove' (reskinned as a throw/slam/hard takedown, etc.)

2) Attempt to strangle an enemy. Grapplers must first roll to immobilize (restrain) the enemy, then pass three consecutive Grapple checks. Strangled enemy is brought to 0hp rendered unconscious. Killed, if Grappler maintains the choke for another round.

3) Attempt to cripple an enemy. Grappler must first roll to restrain an enemy, then must make a contested Athletics check to attack a limb. Success means the enemy takes 1d4 + str dmg and is under some sort of crippling effect (only one arm can be used, disadvantage on physical attacks, -10' of movement, etc.)

I like this. This is similar to what my DM lets me do with my grappling Barb. He lets me make a str check on an already grappled enemy to break a limb or neck. The DC is usually 15-17 for a limb break and DC20 to break a neck of a similarly sized creature which I'm 1 for 2 on attempts.
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He also lets me "slam" an enemy for usually 1d4 or 1d6+str depending on who what and how I do it. It's a fun build for sure. Works best with other damage dealers in the party though. I found our party to be low on DPR so my char ends up using a weapon more than I intended.