Flaming/Flaming Burst...and its cousins...
- Thread starter kreynolds
- Start date
Spatzimaus
First Post
Well, even though it's not supported by the rules, I went ahead and said you can have Double Flaming, with both flamings activated by the same action. Primarily I did this because I just never liked how it was ALWAYS only 1d6 damage, it's just too inflexible.
Yes, it makes Burst weapons less powerful (except that as part of my Material rules, certain metals/crystals reduce costs of certain abilities, so for some weapons Flaming Burst only costs +1), but that wasn't the big problem I was encountering.
I was seeing people say "Okay, I want a Flaming Frost Shock Sonic Longsword". Frankly I'd rather see "Longsword of Really Hot Fire" than that sort of mixing.
As a side effect, it also sorta killed Bane weapons. Why bother with a Trollbane weapon when you can get double flaming? Bane was a bit weak to begin with, too.
There's one thing people haven't considered when comparing Double Flaming to Flaming Burst: elemental resistances/hardness. If the target has Fire 10, a double flaming sword only gets past that 8% of the time, and only for 1-2 damage. Fire 15 stops it cold (no pun intended). Too many times when fighting outsiders or such, you end up writing off the ability entirely.
On the other hand, a Flaming Burst weapon can't get past either on a normal hit, but a x2 weapon on a critical gets past Fire 10 about half the time, doing up to 6 damage, and can even get past Fire 15 if you roll perfectly. If it's a x3 or x4 weapon, you'll practically always get past it, assuming you crit.
(Keen Scimitar with Improved Critical = lots of crits)
If you don't like letting the Flamings stack, just make some new weapon enchantments:
GREATER FLAMING: +2d8 fire damage, sets objects on fire (see special rules for that), acts as a light source, Market Price +3, requires Delayed Blast Fireball, doesn't stack with Flaming.
and so on.
Or, one that I like, that came from this board:
SEARING: When used on a weapon with an elemental damage enchantment (Flaming, etc.), increase the elemental damage die one size (so Flaming does 1d8, and burst abilities do 1d12). Also, the weapon bypasses Elemental Resistances (but not immunities or object hardness). Market Price +1.
(It's like Sure Striking for elemental damage, in a way)
Yes, it makes Burst weapons less powerful (except that as part of my Material rules, certain metals/crystals reduce costs of certain abilities, so for some weapons Flaming Burst only costs +1), but that wasn't the big problem I was encountering.
I was seeing people say "Okay, I want a Flaming Frost Shock Sonic Longsword". Frankly I'd rather see "Longsword of Really Hot Fire" than that sort of mixing.
As a side effect, it also sorta killed Bane weapons. Why bother with a Trollbane weapon when you can get double flaming? Bane was a bit weak to begin with, too.
There's one thing people haven't considered when comparing Double Flaming to Flaming Burst: elemental resistances/hardness. If the target has Fire 10, a double flaming sword only gets past that 8% of the time, and only for 1-2 damage. Fire 15 stops it cold (no pun intended). Too many times when fighting outsiders or such, you end up writing off the ability entirely.
On the other hand, a Flaming Burst weapon can't get past either on a normal hit, but a x2 weapon on a critical gets past Fire 10 about half the time, doing up to 6 damage, and can even get past Fire 15 if you roll perfectly. If it's a x3 or x4 weapon, you'll practically always get past it, assuming you crit.
(Keen Scimitar with Improved Critical = lots of crits)
If you don't like letting the Flamings stack, just make some new weapon enchantments:
GREATER FLAMING: +2d8 fire damage, sets objects on fire (see special rules for that), acts as a light source, Market Price +3, requires Delayed Blast Fireball, doesn't stack with Flaming.
and so on.
Or, one that I like, that came from this board:
SEARING: When used on a weapon with an elemental damage enchantment (Flaming, etc.), increase the elemental damage die one size (so Flaming does 1d8, and burst abilities do 1d12). Also, the weapon bypasses Elemental Resistances (but not immunities or object hardness). Market Price +1.
(It's like Sure Striking for elemental damage, in a way)
Roland Delacroix
First Post
Spatzimaus said:
True dat. In my campaign I made Bane only a +1 enhancement for most creature types.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Instead of dropping Bane to +1, I let it act sorta like a Favored Enemy, giving a few small bonuses that add up. So, besides just +2d6 damage, you also get +2 to a roll to confirm a critical hit, act as +2 higher enhancement for the purposes of bypassing DR, that sort of thing.
Otherwise, you'd have people skipping it anyway. If it only does damage, most people would rather take CONSISTENT damage (like Flaming) than damage that only kicks in when the DM wants it to.
Otherwise, you'd have people skipping it anyway. If it only does damage, most people would rather take CONSISTENT damage (like Flaming) than damage that only kicks in when the DM wants it to.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Oh, and those weapon enchantments, I forgot a couple things.
GREATER FLAMING
The sword blade glows red, as if it's been sitting in a forge. This emits the light; it's not ACTUALLY hot, so it doesn't keep you from putting it in a sheath. Any time you attack someone (anyone, for any reason), it bursts into flames (use-activated); the flames die down at the end of the round.
The downside is, you don't have a choice, so against certain monsters (a golem that heals with fire?) this always-on part is a bad thing. But usually, the fact that you don't have to activate anything is a good part.
If you want it to stack with Flaming, reduce the damage to +1d8, and only +2 price. People had complained that it didn't stack with Flaming Burst either, and unless you want to make a Greater Flaming Burst, this is a better option. But personally, I like it as a larger +3 bonus.
You can also make a Greater Frost (glows white and looks like the blade is made of ice, and instead of setting them on fire, they make a Fort save or be Slowed for a round), Greater Shock (electrical arcs running up and down the blade, giving off light, and they make a Reflex save or be Shaken for a round), etc.
Greater Sonic does less damage (2d6) but they make a Will save or be stunned. Greater Acidic does damage over a few rounds, and I'm thinking some sort of save or you armor gets damaged, but that's harder to balance.
GREATER FLAMING
The sword blade glows red, as if it's been sitting in a forge. This emits the light; it's not ACTUALLY hot, so it doesn't keep you from putting it in a sheath. Any time you attack someone (anyone, for any reason), it bursts into flames (use-activated); the flames die down at the end of the round.
The downside is, you don't have a choice, so against certain monsters (a golem that heals with fire?) this always-on part is a bad thing. But usually, the fact that you don't have to activate anything is a good part.
If you want it to stack with Flaming, reduce the damage to +1d8, and only +2 price. People had complained that it didn't stack with Flaming Burst either, and unless you want to make a Greater Flaming Burst, this is a better option. But personally, I like it as a larger +3 bonus.
You can also make a Greater Frost (glows white and looks like the blade is made of ice, and instead of setting them on fire, they make a Fort save or be Slowed for a round), Greater Shock (electrical arcs running up and down the blade, giving off light, and they make a Reflex save or be Shaken for a round), etc.
Greater Sonic does less damage (2d6) but they make a Will save or be stunned. Greater Acidic does damage over a few rounds, and I'm thinking some sort of save or you armor gets damaged, but that's harder to balance.
Flaming Burst does 1d6 normal and xd10 based on crit multiplier.
Question:
Does the base +1d6 get replaced on a crit with the xd10?
If yes, then burst sucks as I have always thought.
If no, then it is still decent, though it would depend on the weapon with the burst effect.
Scimitar, keen, improved crit, burst works on 12+. That would make it 2d6 +1d6(flaming) + 1d10 (burst); ave 15.
Scimitar, keen, improved crit, flaming, shocking works on 12+. That would make it 2d6 +1d6(flaming) + 1d6 (shocking); ave 14.
So, on a crit the weapon averages 1 more damage per hit. On a normal attack the burst averages 3.5 damage less per hit than a double flaming weapon. So theoretically, over time, with a low multiplier weapon the double flaming will do more damage.
Great Axe, keen, improved crit, burst works on 18+. That would make it 2d12 +1d6(flaming) + 3d10 (burst); ave 29.
Great Axe, keen, improved crit, flaming, shocking works on 18+. That would make it 2d12 +1d6(flaming) + 1d6 (shocking); ave 20.
So, on a crit the weapon averages 9 more damage per hit. On a normal attack the burst averages 3.5 damage less per hit than a double flaming weapon. So theoretically, over time, with a high multiplier weapon the double flaming will do more damage.
So once again you come to a decision time.
If you like to deal massive damage on a single hit, you would take the great axe with burst, like the big fighter who wields a great axe anyway.
If you like to use crits to deal your damage, you would use the scimitar with double flaming, like the fighters who use the scimitars anyway.
Two different mentailities. Both are "equally" good. Do you nickle and dime the guy, or do you kill him with massive damage?
Same argument as the full plate and no dex or chainshirt with dex and tumble.
Not sure if that answered the question but...
Question:
Does the base +1d6 get replaced on a crit with the xd10?
If yes, then burst sucks as I have always thought.
If no, then it is still decent, though it would depend on the weapon with the burst effect.
Scimitar, keen, improved crit, burst works on 12+. That would make it 2d6 +1d6(flaming) + 1d10 (burst); ave 15.
Scimitar, keen, improved crit, flaming, shocking works on 12+. That would make it 2d6 +1d6(flaming) + 1d6 (shocking); ave 14.
So, on a crit the weapon averages 1 more damage per hit. On a normal attack the burst averages 3.5 damage less per hit than a double flaming weapon. So theoretically, over time, with a low multiplier weapon the double flaming will do more damage.
Great Axe, keen, improved crit, burst works on 18+. That would make it 2d12 +1d6(flaming) + 3d10 (burst); ave 29.
Great Axe, keen, improved crit, flaming, shocking works on 18+. That would make it 2d12 +1d6(flaming) + 1d6 (shocking); ave 20.
So, on a crit the weapon averages 9 more damage per hit. On a normal attack the burst averages 3.5 damage less per hit than a double flaming weapon. So theoretically, over time, with a high multiplier weapon the double flaming will do more damage.
So once again you come to a decision time.
If you like to deal massive damage on a single hit, you would take the great axe with burst, like the big fighter who wields a great axe anyway.
If you like to use crits to deal your damage, you would use the scimitar with double flaming, like the fighters who use the scimitars anyway.
Two different mentailities. Both are "equally" good. Do you nickle and dime the guy, or do you kill him with massive damage?
Same argument as the full plate and no dex or chainshirt with dex and tumble.
Not sure if that answered the question but...
