Flanking and invisibility

[Feldrin]

Hi,

I've got some questions about how invisible characters can flank an opponent.
Here's the situation : we have a rogue PC fighting an NPC. A wizard PC becomes invisible and moves to a flanking position.

1) can the rogue sneak attack (ie is this a flanking situation) even if nobody is aware that the wizard is here ?

2) the wizard attacks, is still invisible, and now both the rogue and the NPC are aware of his presence. Does it change something ?

3) the wizard silently moves away from the battle. What happens ?


Here are my thoughts about this issue : I think that there can only be flanking when the NPC is aware that someone is behind his back. So I would say that the NPC is not flanked in situation 1, but is in situation 2. However, this leads us to situation 3 where an invisible character can make a clever use of Move Silently and Invisibility to help his friends flank their opponents.

There's a 3rd-level arcane spell in Mongoose's Encyclopaedia Divine : Shamans (called Ghost Combattant if I remember well) which tricks the target in thinking that someone is behind him, effectively granting flanking bonus to anyone attacking him. This seems to be something close to this situation.

I hope I explained it without too many english mistakes. My player has been kind enough to tell me about this idea before playing it in the next game so I have some time to seriously think about it, and I need your help on that matter.

Thanks

 

[Li Shenron]

Difficult subject. I am still not very confident whether it is rather a matter of the defender to be flanked or the attackers to be flanking...

 

[Horrendos]

I would say

1: no flanking
2: flanking
3: if his listen-checks fail flanking

 

[dcollins]

The Sage made a hideous ruling on this subject (IMO), namely that invisible characters never give flanking bonuses (in any of your situations 1-3), if I recall. Pretty sure that's in the 3E FAQ.

I agree with the original poster that if an invisible character is actively engaged in attacking the man-in-the-middle, then flanking bonuses should be awarded. There'll be a little bit of DM adjudication on that score, but I'd be comfortable with that. In case #3 (invisible guy leaves), probably make a Listen check each round to realize he's really gone.

 

[EPRock]

Invisibility and Flanking

If an invisibile wizard is attempting to help the rogue flank.

Only the Wizard will receive a flanking bonus when attacking. Because the opponent is unable to target the wizard without extrordanary means (scent) etc. they are not considered flanked because it is not an opponent officially.

 

[Li Shenron]

...anyway, the only condition required to grant an ally the flanking bonus is to threaten the target (edit: plu of course being in flanking position!).

Therefore, in your cases:

1) flank
2) flank
3) no flank

this because an invisible character doesn't lose the ability to threaten.

The above is by IMHO the rules and everything else is HR although it could make more sense.

 

[MarauderX]

The Sage made a hideous ruling on this subject (IMO), namely that invisible characters never give flanking bonuses (in any of your situations 1-3), if I recall. Pretty sure that's in the 3E FAQ.

I agree with the original poster that if an invisible character is actively engaged in attacking the man-in-the-middle, then flanking bonuses should be awarded. There'll be a little bit of DM adjudication on that score, but I'd be comfortable with that. In case #3 (invisible guy leaves), probably make a Listen check each round to realize he's really gone.

I like the idea of an invisible dude never giving flanking bonuses. It makes sense after he attacks and turns visible, but not if he is still invisible as it would give flanking bonuses to everyone nearby. The defender would have no idea where the invisible attacker is, and everyone that he is facing gets flanking bonuses?!?! Nah.
Now imagine the invisible attacker is silenced too, so he can stride from one side of the defender to the other using 5' steps without being detected. Two others are engaged in melee with the defender, who gets the flanking bonus from the invisible guy now? Everyone? Just the guy who was last opposite the invisible guy?
As a player, as a DM, I like the ruling of invisible guys not giving a flanking bonus. IMO.

 

[dcollins]

Now imagine the invisible attacker is silenced too, so he can stride from one side of the defender to the other using 5' steps without being detected. Two others are engaged in melee with the defender, who gets the flanking bonus from the invisible guy now? Everyone? Just the guy who was last opposite the invisible guy?

In line with what I said above, the answer would be: wherever he attacked last.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Using only the core books, Li Shenron's answer is rules-accurate.

If you are making a melee attack, and a creature friendly to you and directly opposite threatens the opponent, you are flanking.

Whether the creature knows he's there; whether he's actually planning on attacking; whether the creature is asleep; it makes no difference, you get a +2 to your attack roll.

If we include the FAQ answer, things change. Now, you only get a flanking bonus if the opponent can see your ally.

Even if the opponent knows exactly where he is - if he has him pinpointed via a Spot check, Listen check, Scent, Blindsense, Tremorsense, or just because your ally just stabbed him - unless he can actually see your ally, either with normal sight, magical sight, or blindsight, you gain no flanking bonus.

This ruling is the basis of the "Ignore a flanker" technique; if you are fighting a rogue and a fighter, for example, then you are subject to flanking and therefore sneak attacks from the rogue. But according to the rules for Gaze Attacks, you can turn your back on a creature, thereby treating it as invisible. So, if you turn your back on the fighter, he gains a +2 bonus to his attacks for being invisible (in addition to the +2 bonus for flanking - you can still see his ally), and denies you your Dex bonus. The rogue, on the other hand, does not gain flanking bonuses (since his ally is effectively invisible), and therefore cannot sneak attack.

This works even better if you have Uncanny Dodge or Blind Fight, since then you do not suffer loss of Dex against the fighter.

This is taken to its extreme with the 'Blinking Barbarian', flanked by a pair of rogues four levels higher than he is. His Uncanny Dodge does not prevent their sneak attacks due to flanking, since their level is too high... so he closes his eyes. Now, they cannot flank, by the FAQ ruling, and since he has Uncanny Dodge, he does not lose his Dex bonus for being blind.

On his action, he opens his eyes so he doesn't suffer a miss chance, makes a full attack, and then closes his eyes again.

The rogues can still get off one sneak attack a round with Readied Actions (or one between the two of them if he keeps his back turned to one when he opens his eyes), or Full Attacks with no sneak attack damage, but either way, their damage potential is drastically cut.

-Hyp.

 

[Feldrin]

Thanks for your answers (I particularly enjoyed the "Blinking Barbarian" example)

I'll stay true to what I initially wanted to do : the opponent needs to be aware that some invisible guy is in his back to be flanked. I'll allow Move Silently moves to trick someone into thinking that his invisible opponent is still behind him. There will be a Listen check and a Spot check (DC 20) to notice the trick. If the PC attacks someone else, then his previous opponent will automatically be aware that he's one and won't be flanked anymore.