Flanking Question (or, I try on my rules lawyer pajamas)

[Radiating Gnome]

I think I've found a tiny conflict in the rules. Let me know what you think.

I was struck by the Sage's answer to the very last question in the most recent dragon (#312) -- the question about creatures with 0 reach being able to flank a creature when they are in the target creature's square.

The Sage's answer, consistant with the flanking rules of the 3.5 PhB on pg 153, is that a creature that has a threat range of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.

When I read the sage's answer, I was struck by another passage I'd been reading more recently -- rules for creatures of vastly different sizes occupying the same space in the DMG (page 29). There, it says "Any time more than one allied creature occupies an opponent's space (either in the same square on the grid or in separate squares), the allied creatures provide each other with the benefit of flanking."

Now, the easy ruling would be to stick to the hard and fast rule in the PhB. But, really, what's the difference between these two combat scenes -- two halflings(small) attacking a cloud giant (huge), or two pixies(tiny) attacking an Ogre(large)? Or even a pair of daring mice (fine) attacking a human warrior (medium)?

I'll be the first to admit this is a WAY picky point -- and since the heroes in the game are either small or medium, and none have a reach of 0, this is not likely to be a real problem -- and it seems very silly to have to specify that a creature with a reach of 0 can only flank a creature that is three size categories larger than it is, but, in a game where we might start to have some savage species style creatures classes, and might have some tiny PCs (like the little fey dudes in Monty Cook's AE stuff), it might actually be a point that is worth being clear about.

I don't know. I'm probably just being a pain. The rules as written favor heroes, who won't be threatened by sneak attacks from mice, but will have the benefit of being able to sneak attack cloud giants (while occupying their space). And that's not a bad thing.

-rg

 

[Norfleet]

The more interesting question is what happens when 2 mice attack a third mouse: Can the two mice, if they have rogue levels, flank and sneak attack the third mouse? Logic would suggest that yes, two mice could flank a third mouse. However, when everything fits inside a 5' map square, it's kind of hard to tell who's where anymore.

 

[FrankTrollman]

The conflictory passage is not even in the SRD - so I assume that it is an over-sight which will probably not be corrected (but Andy Collins will act like it has been).

The PHB says quite clearly that creatures with a reach of zero feet cannot flank. Further, the SRD repeats this several times.

So my guess is that the intention is that creatures with a reach of zero feat cannot flank.

Note that this means that 2 mice cannot flack a third mouse, which is certainly weird.

I think what we're seeing here is that the 5 foot square is simply too large to accurately depict where a cat-size combatant actually is.

Consider this combat scene:

X= Empty Space
E= Enemy

XXX
AEX
XBX

A and B are not flanking.

AXX
XEX
XXB

A and B are flanking E.

If we replace all of the characters with Cloud Giants, it takes up a lot more spaces, but the result is pretty much the same.

If we replace all of the characters with cats, however, everything is different. Now both scenes are just all three models in one square. There is no way to tell them apart.

In order to make flanking make any sense at the small end, we'd have to up the scale - a lot.

And if all or most of the combatants are very small, you might want to do that - otherwise you just aren't going to be able to resolve flanking for small creatures.

-Frank

 

[jgsugden]

I think the DMG text trumps here and allows two mice to flank a third mouse. The text says:

Any time more than one allied creature occupies an opponent's space (either int he same square on the grid or in separate squares), the allied creatures provide each other with the benefit of flanking.

Why does this trump the PHB language? 2 reasons:

1.) Because it begins with *any time*. That seems to indicate that it works in all circumstances if the criteria is met, and

2.) Because it says 'the allied creatures provied each other with the benefit of flanking', not that the allied creatures flank their opponent. They are not flanking. They are just treated as if they were flanking.

 

[D+1]

2.) Because it says 'the allied creatures provied each other with the benefit of flanking', not that the allied creatures flank their opponent. They are not flanking. They are just treated as if they were flanking.

Ugh. They get all the benefits of flanking and are otherwise in the position to flank and have the intention of flanking - but they don't REALLY flank? I didn't kill the orc, I just drove my sword through his heart and he stopped living.

The idea of flanking is that if you have attackers who threaten you on opposite sides you can't put up your best defense. Without a threat range the PHB effectively takes the position that you're not threatened in the same way as you would be versus an opponent who did have a threat range. Teensy weensy opponents just don't present as great a threat because of sheer LACK of size. That seems perfectly reasonable and should be the general practice.

The DMG, however, is presenting a more specific case. When not one, but TWO (or more) allies are occupying enemy spaces (that is, when the two allies are either in the same single space as an opponent or occupy two or more spaces that are filled by a single opponent) then they can flank. This seems like a perfectly reasonable scenario to me and I personally don't have a problem with it being an "exception" to the rule that creatures without a threat range don't flank.

 

[Nareau]

I think the DMG text trumps here and allows two mice to flank a third mouse. The text says:
"Any time more than one allied creature occupies an opponent's space (either int he same square on the grid or in separate squares), the allied creatures provide each other with the benefit of flanking."

I don't think that quote should be taken literally. When two creatures are grappling, they occupy the same space. Neither one helps to flank the other. If I step on that annoying mouse-rogue (and knock him unconscious), he certainly doesn't provide any kind of flanking bonus.
At any rate, I'd let two mice flank a third one. Heck, I'd let a mouse aid in flanking a human. I don't think I'd let a mouse help flank the Terrasque.

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