Flat-footed, surprise and initative.

[ComradeGnull]

I definitely understand what you're saying. And, I guess (though I haven't looked it up), RAW agrees with you.

But my problem with the above is the following:

Lets say you're in combat. Initiative has been rolled, and your turn comes up. You use your turn to ready an action. You point your loaded crossbow at the closed door and say that you will fire if the door opens. At some point before your turn comes up again, the door opens and BOOM, you fire! There is no "chance" that your readied action might not happen. It always happens under the context of the trigger... because you were READY.

What you're saying is that outside of combat, the FIRST thing you do is check for surprise. Then, even if I was READY to catch the flipped coin (I'm in a ready stance, my hand is out and ready, I'm staring at the coin, I'm focused, etc), if my friend "gets surprise" on me then this somehow bypasses the fact that I was ready to catch it. He flips the coin, and I DON'T catch it, because I could not possibly have been ready since initiative had not been rolled yet.

Is this really how it is supposed to work via RAW?

In the first situation, you and the other party competed to see who was fastest and you won. You pre-empted his action as soon as he began it because you had the initiative. In the second scenario, who was fastest hadn't been resolved yet- you were waiting to catch the coin, and so was your friend. The initiative roll resolves whose reflexes are faster. If there is no surprise, the assumption is that both parties realized that the other was going to try something (an attack, generally), and so quickness of reflexes resolves who gets to act first.


If you are ambushing someone, there might be surprise, so it's Perception vs. Stealth. Attacking an ally might be something like Sense Motive vs. Stealth or Sleight of Hand. If the attacker fails that roll, that means they had an indication of what was coming- your friend saw you tense to get ready to catch the coin- and now it is essentially a test of reflexes, or a roll to see which of two prepared actions gets precedence.

 

[tylermalan]

In the first situation, you and the other party competed to see who was fastest and you won. You pre-empted his action as soon as he began it because you had the initiative. In the second scenario, who was fastest hadn't been resolved yet- you were waiting to catch the coin, and so was your friend. The initiative roll resolves whose reflexes are faster. If there is no surprise, the assumption is that both parties realized that the other was going to try something (an attack, generally), and so quickness of reflexes resolves who gets to act first.

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant - we aren't both trying to catch the coin. My friend is about to flip a coin. When he does, the coin will be in the air, flipping, without interference from my friend. I am sitting there, staring at the coin, waiting for it to flip, and readying an action to catch it once it goes airborne. The moment my friend flips it, I have a "chance" to catch it. In-game, this might be resolved with a dexterity check or something, representing the fact that I might try to catch it and miss. This is similar to readying the crossbow to fire when the door opens. Just because you fire doesn't mean you hit something, and this is represented by an attack roll.

What Stream is saying (unless I also misunderstand) is that since we haven't rolled initiative yet, I don't even have a CHANCE to catch the coin if my friend beats me on the initiative roll and/or surprises me.

What I'm saying is that this is ALMOST impossible to the degree that following the RAW in this case is absurd. I'm ready to catch the coin. I have the reflexes of an average person. The coin goes airborne. Nothing interfered, and even if I didn't know exactly WHEN the coin would be flipped (in essence, my friend "surprised" me by flipping the coin at a time that I did not expect) I would still, in almost every circumstance that I can think of, have a moment and a chance to at least attempt to reach out and catch the coin before it landed back in my friend's waiting, open palm.

What Stream is saying is that my friend could surprise me by flipping the coin at a time that I did not expect, and since I'm "surprised" in the context of initiative and my friend is not, then his entire action of flipping the coin, the coin sailing into the air and then landing back in his hand... this all happens before I can even move, because even though I was ready, my surprise was so great that I couldn't react in time to just reach out and at least attempt to snag the coin. I couldn't just pull the crossbow trigger. Really? Absurd, I say!

 

[Friend of the Dork]

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant - we aren't both trying to catch the coin. My friend is about to flip a coin. When he does, the coin will be in the air, flipping, without interference from my friend. I am sitting there, staring at the coin, waiting for it to flip, and readying an action to catch it once it goes airborne. The moment my friend flips it, I have a "chance" to catch it. In-game, this might be resolved with a dexterity check or something, representing the fact that I might try to catch it and miss. This is similar to readying the crossbow to fire when the door opens. Just because you fire doesn't mean you hit something, and this is represented by an attack roll.

What Stream is saying (unless I also misunderstand) is that since we haven't rolled initiative yet, I don't even have a CHANCE to catch the coin if my friend beats me on the initiative roll and/or surprises me.

What I'm saying is that this is ALMOST impossible to the degree that following the RAW in this case is absurd. I'm ready to catch the coin. I have the reflexes of an average person. The coin goes airborne. Nothing interfered, and even if I didn't know exactly WHEN the coin would be flipped (in essence, my friend "surprised" me by flipping the coin at a time that I did not expect) I would still, in almost every circumstance that I can think of, have a moment and a chance to at least attempt to reach out and catch the coin before it landed back in my friend's waiting, open palm.

What Stream is saying is that my friend could surprise me by flipping the coin at a time that I did not expect, and since I'm "surprised" in the context of initiative and my friend is not, then his entire action of flipping the coin, the coin sailing into the air and then landing back in his hand... this all happens before I can even move, because even though I was ready, my surprise was so great that I couldn't react in time to just reach out and at least attempt to snag the coin. I couldn't just pull the crossbow trigger. Really? Absurd, I say!

I pretty much agree with your sentiment. Most people in RL would be able to catch the coin without difficulty, as long as they had a split second to react to the falling coin. This is something very different than the "fist against fist" reaction game, where one tries to hit and one to evade. In this case a simple opposed test of some sort is the best, and the loser might indeed be "flat-fisted" for a moment.

However when neither side is surprised, and two (or more) opposing characters wants to act at the same time (say, as soon as a door opens), it is not quite fair that one of them is almost defenseless just because of a lower initiative test.

A has a crossbow ready and wants to shoot someone passing through the door. B wants to run into the room as soon as a door opens.

DM asks for initiative, B wins. He rushes through the door, but this would trigger the ready action - but since initiative has not been rolled yet, B gets to move inside (move action) AND hit the enemy who stands there dumbfounded and looses dex+dodge to ac. Realistically, it takes alot less time and effort to just squeeze the trigger in reaction to the movement, or to the door opening.

In other systems ranged attacks are favored in this respect - they are usually quicker than move+melee, either because movement per round is more limited, takes place slower, or happens at a different time.

Example: In Call of Cthulhu action priority is melee, ranged, movement. Thus if an enemy is in melee he can strike you before you can shoot or move. But if he is not in reach, you can shoot before he can move, and then next round he can strike.

I'm not saying we should change the rules of Pathfinder this much, but allowing ready and delay actions outside of combat is not much of a stretch.

The remaining question is: How much does this affect the Rogue's sneak attack?
Well, a possible fix is to use the 4th ed D&D rule, which specifically allows the Rogue "combat advantage" against anyone who has not acted yet in the first round. This gives him much needed bonus to hit, and Sneak Attack, and could be justified with him just being that damned fast.

This would definitely be a house rule though.

 

[ComradeGnull]

Ok, I think I see- I think the talk of coins and doors had me confused. Let me try a different example to see if I understand you:

Mexican standoff between A and B. They are negotiating at the moment (not in combat, no initiative order established, etc.), but A has a crossbow trained on B with the intention that if B moves, goes for a weapon, etc., A shoots him.

In a valid interpretation of the RAW, when B decides to draw his weapon and charge A, you both roll initiative. No one is surprised. If A rolls a 4 and B rolls a 16, B can draw his sword, make his full move, and strike A before A pulls the trigger. A is flatfooted for the strike, and has no Dodge bonus to his AC.

This seems stupid, and is.

In this case, I would say: don't do that. Unless B is The Flash and A is Action Zombie, let A take his action, then roll initiative. Doing otherwise requires abandoning common sense. If both parties are contemplating an action that can be resolved in the same time frame (i.e., A has a gun trained on B and vice versa), then initiative makes sense.

I think there is probably some argument regarding when you start counting time in rounds relative to an impending conflict that can support this in the RAW, but it seems like a case where common sense makes a better rationale.

I'm not convinced that the flat-footed rule for combat that starts equitably ever made a lot of sense. Does it come into play anywhere other than Sneak Attack eligibility?

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Ok, I think I see- I think the talk of coins and doors had me confused. Let me try a different example to see if I understand you:

Mexican standoff between A and B. They are negotiating at the moment (not in combat, no initiative order established, etc.), but A has a crossbow trained on B with the intention that if B moves, goes for a weapon, etc., A shoots him.

In a valid interpretation of the RAW, when B decides to draw his weapon and charge A, you both roll initiative. No one is surprised. If A rolls a 4 and B rolls a 16, B can draw his sword, make his full move, and strike A before A pulls the trigger. A is flatfooted for the strike, and has no Dodge bonus to his AC.

This seems stupid, and is.

In this case, I would say: don't do that. Unless B is The Flash and A is Action Zombie, let A take his action, then roll initiative. Doing otherwise requires abandoning common sense. If both parties are contemplating an action that can be resolved in the same time frame (i.e., A has a gun trained on B and vice versa), then initiative makes sense.

I think there is probably some argument regarding when you start counting time in rounds relative to an impending conflict that can support this in the RAW, but it seems like a case where common sense makes a better rationale.

I'm not convinced that the flat-footed rule for combat that starts equitably ever made a lot of sense. Does it come into play anywhere other than Sneak Attack eligibility?

That's not a mexican standoff, that's a "freeze sucka!"-standoff. In this case A should have a definite advantage, as it is assumed he had surprised and used it for a ready action instead of shooting. If not, B should be able to have a weapon ready as well. Afaik you CAN ready a charge.

As for the equitability (is that a word?), I think it's mostly for sneak attack. "Flat-footed" does not exist in other systems, and did not exist until 3rd edition D&D. Removing it altogether would be fair if not for Rogues.

If both sides have ready actions, there will be an actual standoff as no one does anything other than ready. Strangely enough, if one of the suddenly decides to make a move, the other will automatically go first (assuming initiative has already been rolled).

If two characters tries to act on the same time (ready actions, Delay), then I got a suggestion from one of my players: Use the rule about same initiative. The one with the highest Initiative modifier acts first, if there is a tie they roll opposed initiative tests.

As a counter-argument, movies are full of examples where the hero, despite having enemies ready with weapons to shoot hostages or other nasty things, manage to preempt them and save the day. In my book though, this requires a bluff check etc. to distract the foe, thus nullifying the ready action.

 

[Gazra]

It might seem clunky, but there's not really a way to always be on your toes so that you're never caught flat footed. There are specific instances, but those should be handled with discretion.

Lets, for example, say that a character has his bow drawn, and knocked an arrow. If he said, I'm going to shoot the first thing that moves his readied action would be two things. A perception check to see anything, and if he does, an automatic attack roll.

I would be very careful to just allow everyone to run around with a ready action. As a DM, I would need to stipulate some threat, otherwise the game would break down.

It might be clunky, or unrealistic, but we're playing a game with Wizards and Dragons.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

It might seem clunky, but there's not really a way to always be on your toes so that you're never caught flat footed. There are specific instances, but those should be handled with discretion.

Lets, for example, say that a character has his bow drawn, and knocked an arrow. If he said, I'm going to shoot the first thing that moves his readied action would be two things. A perception check to see anything, and if he does, an automatic attack roll.

I would be very careful to just allow everyone to run around with a ready action. As a DM, I would need to stipulate some threat, otherwise the game would break down.

It might be clunky, or unrealistic, but we're playing a game with Wizards and Dragons.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, no one here claimed you can never be flat-footed. And no, you can't run around with a ready action. Anyone taking one should be aware of a clear danger, just like in the examples posted.

And keep wizards and dragons out of it, they are not relevant to the argument, and does not justify anything.

 

[tylermalan]

Yep! Ridiculous, but I guess RAW probably supports Stream.

 

[jefgorbach]

Correct, however "combat" begins once one side decides to go offensive which does NOT require both sides to be either aware nor able to attack each other.

In your examples, whomever stated they are attacking when the door/elevator opens has declared/begun "combat" leaving his allies momentarily flat-footed until they opt todo likewise. Rolling initiatives would not be necessary until the door opens and their targets become aware of the ambush (presuming they were even present when it opened)

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Correct, however "combat" begins once one side decides to go offensive which does NOT require both sides to be either aware nor able to attack each other.

In your examples, whomever stated they are attacking when the door/elevator opens has declared/begun "combat" leaving his allies momentarily flat-footed until they opt to do likewise. Rolling initiatives would not be necessary until the door opens and their targets become aware of the ambush (presuming they were even present when it opened)

That is an interesting take on it, and quite valid. However, if you allow players to begin combat when they want to it means enemies will ONLY be flat-footed if they are unaware until the combat starts, which means they will either be Surprised or they detected the enemy just as the combat begins. Otherwise it is stupid not to take delay, ready or total defense actions (or just spell up), thus having acted before the first attack is made.

This actually makes sense, and is an interpretation of RAW, but may deprive the Rogue of some sneak attacks (which I believe Stream here is concerned about).

Still, if this is the only way the Rogue has to make sneak attacks he is pretty gimped anyway. These situations are not THAT common to begin with, unless you are playing "Elevator Action" the RPG (kudos for ppl getting the reference).