Flat Healing Without Using a Surge--Infinite Daily HP?

[mattdm]

However, I think you're absolutely right. These powers are an exception, and they should be errataed or eliminated. It's a failing to remain consistent with an elegant and successful portion of the 4e ruleset. It is not a failure of 4e, just these specific exceptions.

Heh. Now you're agreeing with a strawman. I don't have a problem at all with non-limited healing as a side-effect in combat. But effects which are designed to be that and which don't explicitly require a target could benefit from being made to require a target.

 

[Umbran]

pff
7 pages of pointless arguing with a crybaby

There is no call for these insults. Please take three days off from these boards. I suggest you use the time to consider what our primary rule "Keep it civil" means, and what impact it is going to have on your posting style.

 

[Cadfan]

1. Sunburst doesn't make healing surges "not important" at higher levels. A level 27 fighter has hit points of 171 + initial constitution score, assuming no other relevant feats or modifiers. Sunburst can heal him for 10+Wis+Cha, so about... lets say 25. His healing surge value would be expected to be over 45. At absolute best, sunburst is going to "top off" his hit points between combats.

2. I feel bad for Digital M@. His mistake was one of culture shock. In Real World, a player who uses the exploits discussed at the beginning of the thread (carting around a goblin in manacles, untying it and handing it a knife, then clubbing it unconscious for minor hit point gains, then repeating the process 5 or 6 times over the course of an hour until the party is healed), is a disruptive player who, in most games, is told to shape up or not to come back. In Internet World, people who worry about that are grand philosophers with Weighty Opinions. Digital M@ thought he was in Real World, and talking to a troll. But he was in Internet World, and that makes him the troll.

 

[Sylrae]

Really what this is all about is that we don't like that there are loopholes to begin with. Making judgement calls every time is a bad fix for the loopholes, and thus, the loopholes need ways to be written away; houserules.

my houserules don't ONLY cover some loopholes, they do other stuff, but the fact it, you can end up with a pretty large number of pages of houserules. I'm up to 14 pages, and that's not counting spells, classes, or feats, or abilities, just mechanics.

The use that would bother me isn't the prisoner idea, but if the players handle things right they can make alot of things a 'threat'.

Sneak up on a single town guard (who is armed and not considering the PCs an enemy) and then whack him for a bunch of hit points from behind. If they're lucky and time it right he goes down right after and he makes no noise cause they will have caught him by surprise.

Would the get away with it (maybe the first time). The issue is that, as a DM, I know I will have players who will try it expecting it to work, cause in the book, that IS how it works. I want them to know in advance what they can and cannot do, and don't want to make a bunch of wishywashy judgement calls.

Edit: Also, I should note, that doing this in a game would not necessarily get the player in . I know DMs who reward this playstyle and consider it being creative. Hence me wanting solid rules that aren't easy to poke holes in (3.5 polymorph + Permanency anybody?).

 

[WalterKovacs]

Really what this is all about is that we don't like that there are loopholes to begin with. Making judgement calls every time is a bad fix for the loopholes, and thus, the loopholes need ways to be written away; houserules.

my houserules don't ONLY cover some loopholes, they do other stuff, but the fact it, you can end up with a pretty large number of pages of houserules. I'm up to 14 pages, and that's not counting spells, classes, or feats, or abilities, just mechanics.

The use that would bother me isn't the prisoner idea, but if the players handle things right they can make alot of things a 'threat'.

Sneak up on a single town guard (who is armed and not considering the PCs an enemy) and then whack him for a bunch of hit points from behind. If they're lucky and time it right he goes down right after and he makes no noise cause they will have caught him by surprise.

Would the get away with it (maybe the first time). The issue is that, as a DM, I know I will have players who will try it expecting it to work, cause in the book, that IS how it works. I want them to know in advance what they can and cannot do, and don't want to make a bunch of wishywashy judgement calls.

Edit: Also, I should note, that doing this in a game would not necessarily get the player in . I know DMs who reward this playstyle and consider it being creative. Hence me wanting solid rules that aren't easy to poke holes in (3.5 polymorph + Permanency anybody?).

Simple answer:

If an "encounter" can be completed in a single round ... it isn't a threat. Unless they are unleashing a bunch of dailies, an encounter that ends in the suprise round/first round wasn't much of a threat ... odds are it involved a single opponent [as you have framed it] who would have to be either a solo monster or EXTREMELY high level to actually qualify as an appropriate level for the PCs. Now, if it was a single player on their own ... the XP might work out that it's a "credible threat".

If a town card is a credible threat to the people attack him ... he should be able to stand up to the players a bit more than just getting taken out silently. If he's basically a minion [which is what you want in guards so they can be silently disposed of during an infiltration, so they are only really dangerous if the players lose the element of suprise] he's not a credible threat if the party make it a situation where he is a minion that is both outnumbered and suprised and cut off from reinforcements.

 

[Sylrae]

Simple answer:

If an "encounter" can be completed in a single round ... it isn't a threat. Unless they are unleashing a bunch of dailies, an encounter that ends in the suprise round/first round wasn't much of a threat ... odds are it involved a single opponent [as you have framed it] who would have to be either a solo monster or EXTREMELY high level to actually qualify as an appropriate level for the PCs. Now, if it was a single player on their own ... the XP might work out that it's a "credible threat".

If a town card is a credible threat to the people attack him ... he should be able to stand up to the players a bit more than just getting taken out silently. If he's basically a minion [which is what you want in guards so they can be silently disposed of during an infiltration, so they are only really dangerous if the players lose the element of suprise] he's not a credible threat if the party make it a situation where he is a minion that is both outnumbered and suprised and cut off from reinforcements.

I suppose all of what you said makes sense, but it's still subjective. The amount of time something takes to be dispatched shouldn't determine if it's a threat. otherwise the players will be penalized for being creative or having great strategy.

The solutions I see to it are what was suggested a couple posts back: 1. Have a well defined system to define what does or does not qualify as a threat, based on stats;
2. Remove and replace any mechanics that require something to be a 'threat' (this one comes from my opinion)

#1 is the best quick solution if you want to keep as much of it the same as RAW as possible.

#2 is the best solution if you want well defined rules: The drawback is that it takes more houserule making. A whole bunch of them instead of just one.

 

[Regicide]

If I can get XP from it, it's a threat. Theres a reason why the XP table had a bottem in 3.5, because it MADE SENSE. Welcome to 4E, where a paladin can murder a town of peasants, gain a level from it, and not fall.

 

[silentounce]

So, is there anything preventing the set of powers (such as Sunburst, but there are others) that are per encounter, heal a set amount, and do not spend a surge from giving a group effectively infinite daily HP?

Yes, the DM.

Seriously, eight pages and two days of this? Are there really DMs that would allow this sort of thing? How can anyone have fun with such a pushover?

 

[alanpossible]

I think "credible threat" is even mechanically definable under the rules. Clearly, if they're a credible threat, you could make an encounter out of them.

The DMG suggests that using monsters 2 or 3 levels lower than the level of the players would not be a threat; regardless of how many such monsters you use (similarly, I think you can use monsters up to 7 levels higher, off the top of my head).

On top of that, you can use the XP of the monster to determine what level of encounter it would make versus the entire party. A first level minion is 25 xp which is 20 times lower than the XP needed for a single encounter for 5 players. If they're unarmed, unarmoured, damaged, etc. then I'd start shaving further XP off.

Again, I think you are advised to use encounters no easier than 2-3 levels below that of the players.

So a bar fight with 2-3 human minions...no. Not a credible threat for a party of level 1 adventurers.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Yes, the DM.

Oberoni.