Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[Mallus]

All this discussion on the relative levels of abstraction of hit points misses a better question in my opinion

Several better questions, really.

To my mind one of them is: where D&D is concerned, aren't 'realism' and 'simulationism' things we bring to the table, rather than something we find reflected in the actual rules?

It's quibbling really - does it really matter that one is more abstract than the other when both are abstract in the first place?

Not to me.

Why hit points at all?

Tradition (and ease-of-use).

There are all sorts of mechanics for determining combat effects.

My favorite is the Damage Save mechanic from Mutants and Masterminds (does True20 use it too?). The great thing about it --and this ties back to the original topic-- is that it's a sound mechanic that can impart almost diametrically opposite 'flavors' depending on how it's used.

In M&M's default mode, it emulates Golden/Silver Age comics, but if you flip a small number of 'switches' -- lower starting PP totals, limit Impervious defenses, ban certain powers, don't use GM Fiat to save NPC's -- you end with a game that's much grittier than D&D, suitable for a far more realistic, or at least deadlier, sort of adventuring.

 

[gizmo33]

Funny how I understood hit points so easily, from no wargaming or rpg experience, right out of the box. The Holmes Blue Box, that is. Funny how I never met anyone who had trouble visualizing them IRL, even if they happen to be 9 years old and it's their first time playing.

Actually, it's not all that funny so I'll assume you're being sarcastic. You don't leave me much of a choice other than to respond simply to what I think is going on here which is that you say you understand 1e hitpoints simply because you stopped thinking about them 15 years ago. And now that the mechanics have changed it requires you to develop a new set of strategies and rationalizations. But not knowing what you don't know is not the same thing as understanding. (The Holmes Box that I started with was colored - it was the booklet that was monochrome blue. Maybe that's our difference.)

Equally funny how the problems with 4e healing surges come up with almost anyone I talk to about them.

Apropos to what exactly? I didn't really "understand" 4e hitpoints when I first started - but when I thought about the vague rationalizations ("why doesn't my guy get to hit penalties for being wounded") that I used in the 1E days, I found that 4E hitpoints wasn't much different in philosophy, just in the specifics. I started out not liking healing surges but I've come to develop a strategy where they fit as well as anything ever did, simulation wise, and actually make for a much better game experience mechanics wise on top of it.

I guess it's like some of 3e's problems; few people want to admit they exist while the system is "hot". Again, wait until 5e.

I saw you say something like this before. This is vaguely ad hominem in that it's really talking about people's judgement and stuff outside the scope of the hitpoints conversation. I have no reason to not admit anything. I'm not a 4E fanboy. It makes sense to me, and I was being honest and if you want to presume to know my mindset then I'm sure you can convince yourself that you "understand" that as readily as anything else. I'm inclined to think that such "understanding" is not of much value though.

Understand this: I never played DnD expecting a fine correlation between hitpoints of "damage" and actually injury on the character. There were so many places in all editions where the results and rules were inconsistent with regards to physical injury that I pretty soon gave up (in fact, gave up so long ago I don't remember). And I don't care - combat simulation was never why I played the game anyway. Heck, I can't understand how anyone who played through the 1-minute combat rounds of 1E would expect anything else. In any case, it's entirely possible that 5E would have an even better hitpoint mechanic that 4E but that's almost irrelevant to what I'm saying.

 

[LostSoul]

Comic book heroes? Yes. But even Conan has to recuperate from major injuries, unlike Bob the 1st level 4e fighter.

My point with the Skill Challenge idea was that so does Bob, if you want him to.

We go along from fight to fight, describing harsh wounds, keeping the colour even when hp are full.

At night, the players joke about all their wounds. "Damn," the DM says, "that's lame. Let's have a Skill Challenge to deal with all those wounds you've accumulated. You're not playing comic book heroes, after all!" The players agree.

Added feature/flaw: we only have to deal with long-term wounds that need lots of rest when we want to.

 

[Hypersmurf]

4E has too much powers that require me to either be too vague, or use convulted explanations for them and their restrictions.

Interestingly, that's one of the things I'm liking most about 4E - that the power descriptions are vague enough that the flavour can be reskinned just about any way you like.

I'm treating 4E like Mutants and Masterminds, in that respect - an effects-based system. In M&M, Blast is the power that deals ranged damage. Whether you describe it as a lightning bolt, a ray gun, a crossbow, or 100-foot arms that punch you from across the room, it doesn't matter. Force Field is a power that makes it harder to hit you. Whether you describe it as a literal force field, or a preternatural awareness that allows you to dodge out of the way at the last moment, or a flying remote droid that intercepts attacks, it doesn't matter.

So in 4E, I can describe a power in any way I like, and the mechanical effects occur.

If I'm a fighter with the Tide of Iron at-will, then as long as I'm holding a shield, I can make a Str-vs-AC attack that deals 1[W] + Str and pushes the opponent 1 square. Being very vanilla, I can describe it as "I hit him with my sword, and shove him with my shield." But I can also say "I flick a sweeping cut at his calf; off-balance and bleeding, he staggers back a pace." Or "I hook his blade with the edge of my shield to create an opening, and hammer my boot into his chest to force him back." And even in that last case, I'll still add my sword's proficiency and enhancement bonuses to the attack roll, and I'll roll damage as though I described hitting him with the sword.

And if I lose my shield? Then I won't be able to flick a sweeping cut at someone's calf, sending them staggering back a pace off-balance and bleeding. Because I can only use the Tide of Iron power when I'm holding a shield. I don't have an issue with that, because the whole off-balance thing is merely the cinematics I'm using to narrate the mechanical effect of the power.

And I'm sure my current group will do the same rest/bandage thing under 4e. It's everyone's job to add a realism to the game -- if that's what you're after.

Exactly. I get hit for 8 damage, and the DM says "blah blah opens a cut on your arm blah blah", and shortly afterwards the warlord uses a "And all adjacent allies can spend a healing surge". I finish the fight at full hit points.

And during our post-encounter rest, I describe getting the cut on my arm bandaged, and cursing the elf for a fumble-fingered lackwit when he pulls the bandage too tight around the still-fresh wound, and flexing my fingers and declaring "It'll do". Why should being at full hit points stop me doing any of that?

-Hyp.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

2Fenes:
Did you look at Raven Crowkings suggested 3.5 house rule regarding "shaking off damage"? I am not exactly a fan of his solution, but maybe it works for you.

Alternatively, Star Wars Saga edition also has a nice mechanic for that.

If you don't like the idea of regaining "real" hit points, using temporary hit points that disappear after a short rest should (5 minutes, 1 minute, or whatever you chose). You could even allow the "Second Wind" to be triggered by other people (maybe after successful Diplomacy or Intimidate check?), similar to the temporary hit points granted by the Bards Inspire Greatness ability.

I am assuming you want a mechanic that can be called in during combat, not one that just makes healing faster (which is why RCs house rule might not work for you).

 

[Fenes]

Here I'll post the rest of what I wrote:

As I said to RC if ultimately you dislike a game, who am I (or anyone else on this board) to say that you're wrong. But if you're posting on a message board about an issue you're having with the game, that we are not having, then obviously we'll offer our opinion on what we think you're missing. We're not saying we're right and you're wrong. We're just trying to offer advice to other gamers.

You're posting on a message board thats been long viewed as the number one place to goto online for advice and ideas about D&D. I'm trying to offer advice, and yes, using a way that it works for me.

If you're just looking for someone to say "yeah man that sucks!" that's your perogative, but I'd appreciate you not attacking me for offering up an idea. Thats what this board is for as far as I'm aware.

No, I am looking for people who can understand that they said their piece, and can agree to disagree, and argue without trying, for the nth time, to push their well-known, well-discussed and well-refused proposals up again.

I read your arguments in many forms before in this thread, and they do not work for me. No need, no point to bring them up again.

Is that clear now?

As I said, I am not looking for ways to play 4E, I am looking for the best way to have a healing surge that is not permanent healing in 3E. The best way I thought of was temporary hitpoints, who vanish after a short bit of time, like rage effects.

Advice on that is appreciated. But please stop trying to push permanent healing by surge on me.

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, I am looking for people who can understand that they said their piece, and can agree to disagree, and argue without trying, for the nth time, to push their well-known, well-discussed and well-refused proposals up again.

Sorry.

 

[Fenes]

2Fenes:
Did you look at Raven Crowkings suggested 3.5 house rule regarding "shaking off damage"? I am not exactly a fan of his solution, but maybe it works for you.

Alternatively, Star Wars Saga edition also has a nice mechanic for that.

If you don't like the idea of regaining "real" hit points, using temporary hit points that disappear after a short rest should (5 minutes, 1 minute, or whatever you chose). You could even allow the "Second Wind" to be triggered by other people (maybe after successful Diplomacy or Intimidate check?), similar to the temporary hit points granted by the Bards Inspire Greatness ability.

I am assuming you want a mechanic that can be called in during combat, not one that just makes healing faster (which is why RCs house rule might not work for you).

I don't want it triggered by others at all. Just the "I am not dead yet" effect of a seriously wounded character pulling himself together, lashing out at the enemy, and then, once the fight is over, collapsing, will to fight gone with the fight.

I'll Check Raven's house rules. (And, Raven, I didn't mean you, you were just explaining why you have a problem, not why other should or shouldn't have a problem, or why everyone should play like you do.)

 

[Scribble]

As I said, I am not looking for ways to play 4E, I am looking for the best way to have a healing surge that is not permanent healing in 3E. The best way I thought of was temporary hitpoints, who vanish after a short bit of time, like rage effects.

Well my apopologies... Your use of concepts and classes from 4e confused me. I thought you were talking about a 4e game, and not something for a 3e game.

 

[Fenes]

I mean, seriously, can't we focus on what we have in common, instead of trying to convert people who already play D&D? Better spend that energy converting more people who don't play D&D yet.