Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[Raven Crowking]

Hmm... am I misremembering? The question I remember was "Can an unwounded character use a healing surge?", and I gave an answer to that one.

-Hyp.

I must have missed that. What was your answer?

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's a good solution only for those who want what damage means to be absolutely clear... it is an awful mechanic as far as the game goes.

Design so that adrenelin surges are "one per encounter", while keeping the per day limit.

 

[Fenes]

Makes sense. (Though aren't there some classes or feats that allow you to stay conscious while below 0 hit points? Diehard and Frenzied Berseker? Of course, I will not count the latter in any reasonable discussion on 3E hit points. )

Well, in those cases, I'd rule that they are "held together" by sheer act of will (and some help from the gods), but their wounds are neither healing nor closing. They are effectively dieing still, just taking a few seconds longer.
I would also rule that a bard's song couldn't keep them going once the actual reason for staying conscious (frenzy for example) stops working.

As I stated, my problem is not really with the concept of healing surges allowing people to get a second wind, I have issues with the healing being permanent, lasting longer than the fight they are used in, and not temporary. I just don't see adrenalin and sheer willpower being able to keep someone who should be down going all day.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Is this good enough for a summary? I hope I didn't misrepresent any position.

It is an excellent summary.

A side question for RC and Fenes: How do you deal with temporary hit points in 3E? Theoratically, a character dropped to -1 hit points (bleeding) in 3E could be inspired by a Bard to gain a 2(d8+CON) temporary hit points - does this only work because in the end, it is still magic? Or did you never think about this specific case, and object to it, too?

It works because it represents exactly what Inspiring Word or Healing Surges are said to represent. The character gets up with a spurt of adrenelin, but the wound is still there, and when the adrenelin is gone the character collapses again. Actually, this is exactly what happens to Inigo in The Princess Bride.

It should be noted that, in 3e, you can gain temporary hit points while at full. This is because these temporary hit points are not "healing". They are adding capacity, beyond what you can normally do.


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It is an excellent summary.

I aim to please.

Was it good enough for cwhs01?

 

[GlaziusF]

Upthread, it was asked that, if hit points were decoupled from injury, why couldn't you take a healing surge when you were at full.

Originally I ignored it because it seemed like a nonsensical question, like a football coach trying to use one of his timeouts during pre-game warmups.

There's nothing in the rules explicitly preventing it, of course, but I don't feel obliged to try to make narrative sense out of nonsensical player decisions.

There are four things I can think of that could cause players to lose healing surges when they're at full HP.

1. Worsening effects of a disease after an extended rest.
2. Being affected by a power that reduces healing surges but not hit points.
3. Taking "environmental damage" during a long-term skill challenge.
4. Drinking a potion that requires you to spend a healing surge. Potions in the PHB all restore hit points, but there are several that have other effects, such as elemental resistance, in the Adventurer's Vault.

In all cases these represent weakening, exhaustion, or draining that doesn't directly affect combat staying power but does hurt your ability to recover.

There are no instances where, given a major wound, those wounds simply vanish. None. Nada. Zip. REH, in particular, was a careful writer with this sort of thing. Conversely, there are times when REH specifically has Conan (or other characters) incapacitated by their wounds and forced to rest before being fully healed.

Mulling this over, I may have hit on something here.

Conan doesn't get hamstrung by an assassin with a curved serrated dagger because REH rolls a 96 on the Random Narrative Events table. Nor does REH then think "Aw man! In the next scene I was gonna have Conan fight a running battle on the rooftops with the serpent cultists! What am I gonna do now?"

Conan's wounds are part of the plot, either because they were conceived as part of the outline before REH sat down to write, or because the idea came to him as he was writing and he thought he could work it in. More importantly, if the idea does come to him to injure the Cimmerian, REH can take the time to think about how to work it into the plot without it detracting from your enjoyment of the book Xty years later.

Trying to put lasting wounds into a the universal random conflict resolution system does bring up the "what am I gonna do now" problem. I don't know of anybody who makes up even a simple proto-story expecting that at any time it could be interrupted because the character involved had his spleen ripped out by a Kobold Stickpicker.

That's why, if you wanted to put a "lasting wound" system into 4E, I would argue that it should go one level up - the DM should either bestow lasting wounds by plot fiat, or decide to place monsters that could cause them a la the Bugbear Legbreaker. Randomness can still adjudicate whether they happen and how quickly the characters recover, but the DM will - or should - consider the possibility the characters will want to recover more carefully than if it could happen with a low probability at any time.

But as it is, hit points don't model lasting wounds, and I think I've outlined a good reason why not.

 

[Mallus]

If you *don't* max-out your powers/defences, you're going to be in terrible, terrible trouble.

I think M&M2e is a wonderful toolkit, but it would really benefit from a better explanation of how those tools should be used.

The damage system, in my experience, tended to be "you didn't hurt them at all", "you didn't hurt them at all", "they're down" depending on the die rolls. I found it just too swingy.

It can be pretty swingy, especially if the GM isn't consistently doling out Hero Points. The GM is supposed to award Hero Points throughout the adventure. This is the way the system should be used, and I don't think that's made clear anywhere in the base book.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Originally I ignored it because it seemed like a nonsensical question, like a football coach trying to use one of his timeouts during pre-game warmups.

That's sorta what I meant earlier, about why I should have noted it then. A question that seems nonsensical can, quite often, lead to innovations of thinking.

If "healing surges" really do represent morale and adrenelin bursts, having an additional boost of morale when you are unhurt isn't a "nonsensical player decision", provided that it is supported by the game rules.

Mulling this over, I may have hit on something here.

Conan doesn't get hamstrung by an assassin with a curved serrated dagger because REH rolls a 96 on the Random Narrative Events table. Nor does REH then think "Aw man! In the next scene I was gonna have Conan fight a running battle on the rooftops with the serpent cultists! What am I gonna do now?"

Conan's wounds are part of the plot, either because they were conceived as part of the outline before REH sat down to write, or because the idea came to him as he was writing and he thought he could work it in. More importantly, if the idea does come to him to injure the Cimmerian, REH can take the time to think about how to work it into the plot without it detracting from your enjoyment of the book Xty years later.

Trying to put lasting wounds into a the universal random conflict resolution system does bring up the "what am I gonna do now" problem. I don't know of anybody who makes up even a simple proto-story expecting that at any time it could be interrupted because the character involved had his spleen ripped out by a Kobold Stickpicker.

That's why, if you wanted to put a "lasting wound" system into 4E, I would argue that it should go one level up - the DM should either bestow lasting wounds by plot fiat, or decide to place monsters that could cause them a la the Bugbear Legbreaker. Randomness can still adjudicate whether they happen and how quickly the characters recover, but the DM will - or should - consider the possibility the characters will want to recover more carefully than if it could happen with a low probability at any time.

But as it is, hit points don't model lasting wounds, and I think I've outlined a good reason why not.

If you had just read the 1e DMG you could have saved yourself the bother. I believe that, when Gary describes why hit points provide the best simulation without getting in the way of the game, he has already made your point for you.

REH was actually a quite careful plotter, much maligned by the handling others have given his characters over the years. If you really want to read something that seems to include "wandering encounters" ala D&D, you should try Edgar Rice Burroughs.

That said, I personally think that the DM should avoid thinking "Aw man! In the next scene I was gonna have the PCs fight a running battle on the rooftops with the serpent cultists! What am I gonna do now?" The more the DM forces events to follow his encounter order/plot line, the less the players are allowed to actually accomplish.


RC

 

[LostSoul]

If "healing surges" really do represent morale and adrenelin bursts, having an additional boost of morale when you are unhurt isn't a "nonsensical player decision", provided that it is supported by the game rules.

You do get a +2 bonus to all your defenses when you use your Second Wind...

Healing surges really can represent morale and adrenalin bursts, but they're not the only way to go. A Diplomacy or Endurance check might work as well. Some temp hp on success, and maybe you lose a healing surge and suffer a -2 penalty to attacks for the next encounter on a failure.

 

[Mallus]

If "healing surges" really do represent morale and adrenelin bursts, having an additional boost of morale when you are unhurt isn't a "nonsensical player decision", provided that it is supported by the game rules.RC

I see them as more a way to keep fighting through the pain of injury. Thus the presence of pain is a necessary precondition. Also, even adrenaline surges require a trigger. The pre-heat of battle isn't usually a good substitute for the heat of battle.