Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

In an attempt to wrench this topic away from this sidebar, I pose the following question to all and sundry:

Why was 3e adopted so strongly over 2e? If the priority of design should be flavour first, then 2e should be considered a much better game than 3e. 2e's flavour, and by many accounts, 1e's as well, is considered superiour to 3e. Yet, 3e is far and away more popular. What accounts for this success?
I think because 3E is a more coherent game than 2nd ed AD&D.

When I read 2nd ed material, it's full of remarks like "Don't let the rules trump the fun." This implies that the rules, as written, aren't apt to produce fun of the sort the game is aiming at. Which is to imply that they are bad rules.

2nd ed material also has a strong tendency towards railroading by the GM. This is linked to the point above - the rules aren't apt to produce the intended result in play, and instead of new rules that allow the players to make choices that will deliver that result, the GM is encouraged to impose it, despite the rules, in a unilateral fashion.

I think 3E was a success mostly because its rules (i) were more apt to produce what was wanted in play (eg clearer encounter-buidling guidelines, more access to healing etc) and (ii) transferred power from the GM to the players (eg much more intricate character-building rules, which in turn provided input into mouch more intricate and robust action-resolution mechanics).

To the extent that 2nd ed supported a playstyle, it seemed to be a type of high-concept simulationism (the GM fiating and railroading to ensure the delivery of an appropriate high fantasy adventure) with mechanics that pushed in quite a different direction (and therefore had to be frequently ignored).

To the extent that 3rd ed supports a playstyle, it seems to be a curious hybrid of purist-for-system simulationism (let the mechanics tell us what the world looks like) and gamism (let's push the mechanics as far as we can go!) - the inherent incompatibility of these two playstyles is expressed in the conflicts we see on messageboards between those who love the flexibility and variety of all the classes, races, feats, spells etc, and those who call themselve optimisters and are often labelled by others as munchkins.
 

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It is not a matter of achieving perfection with the system. It is just a point where things go too far for some.


I'm pretty convinced by now, that the "perfect game" doesn't excist:)

What i don't get is that people seem to accept HP either without questioning it, or ignoring any flaws in the mechanics wrt sim play, as long as you don't add healing surges to it. IMO with or without healing surges, the HP mechanics carries with it so many bizarre and suspension of disbelief (tm) shattering conotations, that you just have to accept it as a gamist and narativist device.

I don't get it that "it has gone to far" in 4e. I don't really see a difference in the need to ignore the ingame-reality for the HP mechanics in either edition.

If you get what i'm getting at?:)
 

I'm pretty convinced by now, that the "perfect game" doesn't excist:)

What i don't get is that people seem to accept HP either without questioning it, or ignoring any flaws in the mechanics wrt sim play, as long as you don't add healing surges to it. IMO with or without healing surges, the HP mechanics carries with it so many bizarre and suspension of disbelief (tm) shattering conotations, that you just have to accept it as a gamist and narativist device.

I don't get it that "it has gone to far" in 4e. I don't really see a difference in the need to ignore the ingame-reality for the HP mechanics in either edition.

If you get what i'm getting at?:)

I don't want healing surges to permanently heal damage taken, since that just doesn't work well with my playstyle, narrative style and flavor expectations. That's all.
 

Why was 3e adopted so strongly over 2e? If the priority of design should be flavour first, then 2e should be considered a much better game than 3e. 2e's flavour, and by many accounts, 1e's as well, is considered superiour to 3e. Yet, 3e is far and away more popular. What accounts for this success?
Because 2e had become a bloated mess by the time 3e came out. Same thing happened to 3e by the time 4e came out. Lather, rinse, repeat for 5e, I'm guessing. :)
To my mind, it's because 3e actually took a look at what was happening at the table and designed to that. 3e was routinely criticised as being flavourless - all crunch, no fluff and so on and so forth. But, the reason for this was because the designers were trying to build a game that works at as many tables as possible.
And to a certain extent, they did. However, to make it work you had to play it the way the designers wanted, because it had been made so much harder to tinker with than earlier editions. It's the same argument I have with a frighteningly large amount of modern technology: it is exceptionally good at doing what *it* wants, but may or may not in fact do what *I* want. Perfect example: Vista, which I'm in process of trying to force into doing what I want and failing miserably.

On the other issue here, of whether Bad Things should happen either as consequences for bad actions or bad luck, of course they should. Any game such as this that is based somewhat on random chance is going to have great highs, but at times will also be extremely cruel to its characters and - by extension - players. It goes with the territory.

That said, I can't recommend highly enough having henches, cohorts, second characters, etc. in the party to tide you over when one of your characters dies or goes south for a bit.

Lanefan
 

That said, I can't recommend highly enough having henches, cohorts, second characters, etc. in the party to tide you over when one of your characters dies or goes south for a bit.

Absolutely.

If there's one thing I'm not happy about 4e about, it's the deemphasis on this sort of play.

Cheers!
 

Merric and Lanefan, I tend to go the opposite way. That is, I'm not a big fan of henchmen, cohorts etc as substitute PCs, and prefer mechanics and play that can make them unnecessary for that purpose.
 


Merric and Lanefan, I tend to go the opposite way. That is, I'm not a big fan of henchmen, cohorts etc as substitute PCs, and prefer mechanics and play that can make them unnecessary for that purpose.

I prefer to have both options.

Cheers!
 

As far as consequences go, I am in the "death is boring and counter-productive" camp. There's lots more to consequences of failure than death (aka "get raised after a time out" or "you get to change your build now, including name!").
 


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