Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

[Greg K]

Personally, when I play RPG's, I'm simulating the world inside certain kinds of fiction/film/television. The kind full of high adventure, ass-kicking, and wild contrivance. So Healing Surges -- in all there John McClane glory -- actually allow me to simulate the thing I'm trying to simulate better.

That might be the difference. I'm not trying to simulate John McClane and, every time I hear John McClane (or Inigo Montoya) mentioned, I cringe. There's nothing wrong with wanting that style, but it is something I might only tolerate for a specific d20Modern campaign. I just don't want it when playing DND.

 

[LostSoul]

Nice of the slinger to shriek a warning to the PCs so that they know what is expected of them. You're right, nothing artificial here.

Maybe. I can buy it that the slinger would shout. It makes sense for his character; it's not artificial.

So, they can neither see nor hear through the waterfall, no matter how loud the combat, no matter how loud the shrieking slinger (who the PCs, presumably, can automatically hear). Again, nothing artificial here.

There's a roaring waterfall and they're in a cave behind it. It doesn't say "They can't hear" so if you think they should get a Perception check, give them one.

Moreover, knowing that they cannot see or hear through the waterfall, they have no one stationed to alert them as soon as something happens?

That's what the slinger is there for.

So, the creatures inside the lair believe that the outside guards can handle the PCs, and also do not know about the PCs?

They do, that's why they left guards there. If there's trouble, the slinger comes in and they decide to hang out in their lair where they believe they have the advantage. That makes sense to me, even if it's not the best tactical move on their part (and maybe it is). Irontooth only has 8 Int, after all.

All I see in this encounter is NPCs acting in character. If you want to modify their decisions, that's cool, but I don't think it makes no sense if they do what's written in the module.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Let me ask you this RC...

What are you simulating with D&D? (should we fork this?)

My interest lies more in the earlier pulp fantasy works than in John Woo or comic-book style fantasy. I prefer an exploration-style game as well. I am defnitely not looking to simulate the "action hero ala superhero" genre.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

All I see in this encounter is NPCs acting in character. If you want to modify their decisions, that's cool, but I don't think it makes no sense if they do what's written in the module.

You have made it work for you, but I note you have done so by substantially altering what the module actually says.

But, again, this is a better discussion over pints than over computers. I really don't care if anyone agrees with me on this or not. As with 3e problems, I know I'm going to have to wait until the next edition before anyone wants to admit they exist.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

As far as Irontooth goes, well, the waterfall covers sight and the spray covers sound, and it's perfectly reasonable for the kobolds to be taking 10 on perception and completely failing to make anything out. That's why the guards are out there - Irontooth believes they're either capable enough to back off intruders or at least survive to warn him, and if somebody interrupts his skull-bashing practice for another damn stray horse he's going to use THEIR skull next.

Fair enough, so long as we remember that this is not what the module actually says.

 

[GlaziusF]

Fair enough, so long as we remember that this is not what the module actually says.

The module, no. But the DMG does say that creatures default to "ready" - weapons in hand, no impairments to Perception - instead of "alert" - taking up combat positions and making active checks every round - and certainly imply if not outright state that non-"alert" creatures should be using their passive Perception (10+bonus) instead of rolling for it.

If the DM ad hocs a penalty to see/hear through the waterfall instead of making it impenetrable he should be aware that it also applies to the kobolds taking 10 on the other side and not make it so easy to see into the cave that the kobolds wouldn't even need an outside guard.

 

[Mallus]

My interest lies more in the earlier pulp fantasy works...

Okay, but I still see those as falling into the categories of fiction I was describing (or meaning to describe).

... or comic-book style fantasy.

See for me, AD&D is comic-book style fantasy. Then again, my groups used Unearthed Arcana...

I am defnitely not looking to simulate the "action hero ala superhero" genre.

Can you describe what you are trying to simulate in more detail?

So both of us are interested in simulating adventure stories, we just differ on which ones (tone), eh?

 

[MerricB]

"Waterfall: Water cascades from a cliff high above, concealing the entrance to the kobold lair." - Keep on the Shadowfell

My emphasis. You can't see through it.

As to why guards don't leave the cave... well, that's basic tactics. The cave is a better defensive position than out in the open.

 

[Hussar]

You have made it work for you, but I note you have done so by substantially altering what the module actually says.

But, again, this is a better discussion over pints than over computers. I really don't care if anyone agrees with me on this or not. As with 3e problems, I know I'm going to have to wait until the next edition before anyone wants to admit they exist.


RC

This is the second time (I think) you've said this. The problem is, the problems you perceive with 3e, are not the problems other people perceive. I had no problems with 3e's flavour ever, yet you constantly went on and on about how earlier edition flavour was superior.

I complained about how 3e combat was too lethal years before 4e was released. You completely denied, and still deny, that there is any problem.

Your issues with the game are most certainly not the same as other people's. Some other people's perhaps, but, not most people's.

On the waterfall thing - Umm, how exactly can you see through a waterfall? Or hear? Waterfalls are LOUD and pretty opaque.

/edit - just read MerricB's post. Oh, gee, that pretty much answers that then doesn't it?

 

[MichaelSomething]

I would not label it a war. It has been a debate which has been on the whole pretty civil. I don't think anyone has disrespected anyone else on either side of the fence here. If anything, I think respect has been garnered for those with opposing views - with the general concensus being to agree to disagree; some interesting points having been shared.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Your right, this wasn't a war. Can I call it a "police action?"
Seriously, people are being civil. Everyoen should pat themselves on the back for not being jerks. It's just that HP discussion has been done so much, it's pratically a trope (as in TVtropes).

That's the best fix, IMHO, anyone in this thread has come up with yet.
Kudos.
Now can you solve 4e's other problems and rewrite the books so that the flavour doesn't bite?

No one can do everything, but everyone can do something. The whole reason we're here is to put our heads together in order to make our gaming better. Someone out there has to have awesome 4e flavor, and another has to have the answers to your problems.

Or you could just buy it. Patherfinder has a pretty cool world from what I hear.