Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

Agreed, though if the rules can help, let 'em.
Assuming they don't "hurt" somewhere else. ;)

That's the kind of sacrifice you have to do in all design - not just role-playing games. Certain attributes are interconnected, and you have to make trade-offs.

Like in Software Engineering:
- Fast
- Good
- Cheap
pick any two.

Of course "pick any two" is simplified, but you have accept if you get a "better" software (more functions, better usability, higher precision) that also works faster, the price will go.

These kind of trade-offs exist in game design, too. That's why there is no perfect game. You have to make your picks. And it is not that you just don't care about either of the 3 attributes. (Maybe in RPGs, one such "trio" is GSN, but there might be others - software engineering knows more then these 3 above, too, as a short internet search for "pick any two" will reveal). But you have to choose priorities every time, whether you like to or not.
 

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((Posting after a party, so, if this is incomprehensible, blame the beer. :) ))

I think Mustrum Ridcully has the right of it. You can't really have it all. You have to choose between elements and whatever choice you make will restrict other elements. As Lanefan says, balancing classes by xp requirements is a possibility, although, in practice, I'm not sure that it really worked out all that well. At worst, you're a level behind the other PC's. If your class is more powerful than 1 level of difference, then the math is borked. That would be very, very difficult to balance I think. 1e, IME, did a very poor job of it.

To give an example, which I hope doesn't piss anyone off, because, honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, look at mass combat rules in D&D. At one time, you had Battlesystem. A neat little minigame that was fairly decent at simulating a mass battle from a fairly high altitude. The PC's couldn't affect the outcome very much. But, it did do mass battle reasonably well.

Compare that to Heroes of Battle. In HoB, you have cinematic battle scenes where the battle between two forces (or more I suppose) is pretty much controlled by DM fiat. It's simply the backdrop for the PC's actions. The entire focus is on the PC's. So, the PC's can affect the outcome of the battle greatly, but, the rules are very poor at emulating a mass battle.

So, it comes down to a choice. Which one works for you? Now, I most emphatically, completely, totally, 100%, want to concretely state that whichever choice you make is NOT WRONG. There is NO WRONG CHOICE. I am NOT, 100% not, completely not, emphatically not, trying to tell people that if the choice they make is different from mine, that they are wrong. I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

There, with that disclaimer in place, hopefully I can forestall any further antagonism with people I have previously pissed off. Sorry I pissed you off in the past. But, I'm really not trying to piss you off this time. Honest.

Anyway, back to my point. The choice you make depends on what you want to gain. Do you want mechanics that detail the outcome of the battle, or do you want mechanics that detail the PC's interactions within the battle? You can't have both. THat doesn't work. Where you draw the line is entirely right for you. For me, I'd go with Heroes of Battle, because I don't care about what happens outside of the player's actions. The campaign is about the PC's IMO. So, mechanics that shift the focus away from the PC's are bad, for me.

YMMV and all that.

To me, I prefer mechanics that focus on game play at the table. Herreman the Wise has raised serious points about healing in 4ed. Fair enough. My response would be to shift the focus. In 3e, the DM could narrate wounds if he wanted to. In 4e, he can't. That's the point of giving narrative control to the players, in the form of Healing Surges. It becomes the player's problem. Have the player's narrate the effects of a serious wound. After all, it's the player in 4e who is going to determine whether or not the wound is in fact serious or not. If the player uses a healing surge to negate the wound, then it's up to the player to present a logical, reasonable representation of the action. The DM doesn't need to be involved.
 

Short reply: In my opinion, definitely, ideally both. The best games are where the designer came up with a mechanic that is simultaneously very playable and conjures the flavor of the in-game situation.
. . .
Regarding D&D, in my opinion OD&D/1E was a nice balance. 2E went too far into "flavor only" and I skipped it. 3.0 swung back in the middle and I liked it. 4E over-swung into "game only" and I'll avoid that, too.

Ah, yup, I agree completely.
 

Herreman the Wise has raised serious points about healing in 4ed. Fair enough. My response would be to shift the focus. In 3e, the DM could narrate wounds if he wanted to. In 4e, he can't. That's the point of giving narrative control to the players, in the form of Healing Surges. It becomes the player's problem. Have the player's narrate the effects of a serious wound. After all, it's the player in 4e who is going to determine whether or not the wound is in fact serious or not. If the player uses a healing surge to negate the wound, then it's up to the player to present a logical, reasonable representation of the action. The DM doesn't need to be involved.
I agree with this.
 

I've just picked up Mouseferatu's Advanced Player's Guide, and what should I find there but "Lingering Damage Rules", which seem to address a lot of the concerns that Herremann the Wise has with the system.

A brief description here of how they work:

The DM chooses at what point a PC takes a lingering wound (the choices range from "Slightly Deadly" through to "Are you Mad?!"). When that wound is taken, you make a saving throw to determine the severity of the wound. Further wounds increase the severity of your wounds by 1 or 2 steps (depending on further saving throws).

Lingering Wounds are then treated as a disease; you make Heal/Endurance checks after long rests to improve on the track, and they have ongoing effects on you, such as reducing your healing surges, defenses and rolls. A new 8th-level ritual allows speedier healing of these wounds.

For myself, I'd probably choose the Slightly Deadly trigger point (0 hp and half healing surges remaining), whilst Herremann might prefer the Somewhat Deadly triggerpoint (first time reach 0 hp). Are You Mad!? (first bloodied or take critical) is enough to have a very, very deadly campaign. Ari suggests using only the first two.

The system isn't quite perfect - under the basic triggerpoints, it only occurs on the first time you reach the condition after a basic rest, but it may be enough of a starting point for Herremann to clear up a few issues he's been having with 4e. :)

Cheers!
 
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I've just picked up Mouseferatu's Advanced Player's Guide, and what should I find there but "Lingering Damage Rules", which seem to address a lot of the concerns that Herreman the Wise has with the system.
Sounds interesting. This is something I was looking at picking up anyway - I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on the book. :)

If criticals worked how they did in 3.x, I think that would be a good option but the 4E mechanics for criticals make this "Ultraviolence". Yeah, I'd go for Hurt me Plenty... I mean Somewhat Deadly. I'd also go for certain situations that would warrant such attention (falls from greater than 30ft. for example).

Good stuff Ari!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

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