"Flipping" saves to attacks

[Lord Mhoram]

The way I saw it - in 3.x you roll for saves, and the attack roll always took 10. In SWSA that is reversed, the defense takes 10, while the attack is rolled. Back in 3.0 they even described AC as taking 10 on the defense roll, and as an option you could roll your AC.

So mathematically speaking there is no difference in what happens, just letting the attacker roll all the attacks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The way I saw it - in 3.x you roll for saves, and the attack roll always took 10. In SWSA that is reversed, the defense takes 10, while the attack is rolled. Back in 3.0 they even described AC as taking 10 on the defense roll, and as an option you could roll your AC.

So mathematically speaking there is no difference in what happens, just letting the attacker roll all the attacks.

True on a 1 for 1 basis, but false in that area attacks in Saga make one attack roll against all target defences; but multiple foes in 3e get to make individual saves (and the UA option pretty much assumed that in 'players roll all the dice' that a separate roll is made against each targets save, IIRC)

CHeers

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Do auto success/fail rolls apply (natural 20/1)?

I guess that's my potential concern (though I'll admit in the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter):

- As a player, I might get zero effect on a large number of opponents (balanced by sometimes I get all of them)
- As a DM, it's an all or none effect
- If the bad guy throws a fireball at the party, he may either all succeed or all fail roll a natural 20 and wipe out the entire party regardless of defense.

I guess I like the randomness inherent in the current saving throw system, but I can see how this revision speeds up play.

But it would invalidate all the "Jesus Saves -- And Takes Half Damage" bumper stickers, and removes a term that has been in D&D since the beginning. EN Worlder "Failed Saving Throw" will seem a quaint anachronism in the 4E era.

 

[mmadsen]

The "flip" would be perfectly symmetrical if the target number were 11 + bonus, not 10, since ties (hitting the target number exactly) go to whoever is rolling the dice.

Once you establish a rule for Taking 11, then you have a game where the PCs always get to roll the dice against monsters and NPCs, whether to hit or to avoid being hit, to enchant or to avoid being enchanted, etc. The player always rolls d20 + bonus vs. the opponent's 11 + bonus.

 

[Baby Samurai]

The "flip" would be perfectly symmetrical if the target number were 11 + bonus,

It is, in UA.

 

[glass]

It originally appeared as a variant in UA.

Where?


glass.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Where?


glass.

In The Players Roll all the Dice section, and:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm#savingThrowsAndSaveScores

 

[Mercule]

Ah, that's something I hadn't considered. Not as "real" as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, rolling a dozen reflex saves ... not quick/easy.

If it really bothers you, let the wizard roll a dozen attacks for his fireball. Time/complexity-wise, it's no worse than 3E.

Personally, I really like the change. I much prefer the mechanical implications that the success or failure of a wizard's spell is based on the wizard's ability rather than the force of will of the target. Either way makes sense with, say charm person, but not so much with harm.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Do auto success/fail rolls apply (natural 20/1)?

Depends. If it's an actual attack, a nat 20 is an auto hit and an auto-critical (SWSE has also eliminated the confirmation of critical hits). Certain attacks - chiefly area attacks, like autofire weapons - can autohit but cannot score criticals.

Other uses - like most Force Powers - are skill checks which do damage, and are thus not actually an attack, and therefore do not score critical hits.

- As a player, I might get zero effect on a large number of opponents (balanced by sometimes I get all of them)

Area attacks, where this will come up most often, usually do 1/2 damage on a miss, and many require that you hit a Defense of 10 to have any effect at all (grenades, autofire weapons, etc.).

 

[Mercule]

SWSE has also eliminated the confirmation of critical hits

This is something that I hope does not find its way to 4E.