Fly spell and hold person?

[douglasesims]

d&d 3.5 fly spell questions

1--pc casts fly on self, uses whip as weapon, positions self to attack directly over enemy just within whip's reach. does anyone see any problems/modifiers for this?

2--pc casts fly on other pc paladin's mount. paladin is on mount. can paladin direct mount to fly? if so, any problems/modifiers for this?

 

[Greenfield]

Hold Person describes the person as "paralyzed". Looking that up under the Conditions header in the SRD, we get:

PARALYSIS
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.) A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

So, from this, you can still take actions, so long as they're purely mental.

So, from this, a caster could use Fly when paralyzed, if it was cast ahead of time. They could also use it if it was cast by someone else, and could even cast it on themselves if they had it prepared with the right feats. (Eschew materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell.)

Although based on the Fly spell, I wouldn't allow use of items like Wings of Flying or Cloak of the Bat though. While technically an item, when in use it becomes "wings", and those are specifically ruled out.

 

[Grim Hawk]

It also says he is "rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless."

 

[Greenfield]

Which would imply that winged fliers wouldn't fall, since they'd be "rooted to the spot", even if that spot was in the air.

They aren't nailed down, they just can't move a muscle. They specifically can cast spells, so long as the spell has no components or foci needed. And their mind isn't shut down, just their body.

 

[Jhaelen]

Which would imply that winged fliers wouldn't fall, since they'd be "rooted to the spot", even if that spot was in the air.

Which would imply that the condition also negates gravity. I'm not really sure if that's the intention.

 

[Greenfield]

Which would imply that the condition also negates gravity. I'm not really sure if that's the intention.

Actually, the description explicitly says that winged fliers will fall.

My point was that the spell doesn't nail your feet to the ground or somehow lock you into a specific point in space. Allies may not be able to bend your limbs (I'd allow a Strength check on that myself), but they could pick you up and carry you.

So could a Fly spell, since it responds to mental commands, and the Paralyzed condition specifically says you can take mental actions.

 

[airwalkrr]

edited

What's tricky here is that the spell says you are frozen in place, which implies you cannot move period, but it also says that if you are in the water you might drown (although it doesn't say "sink") and if you are flying with wings you might fall. So this means movement is possible, but here is the important part (in bold):

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions...

So you cannot move of your own volition. You can't even take mental actions, so you couldn't use psionic powers. Fly allows you to fly through the air at good manueverability, which means you can hover. But hovering is an action, a free action in some cases, but an action nonetheless. A flying character under the effect of a fly spell would therefore probably fall to the ground as if by a feather fall spell until the hold effect ended.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why wouldn't winged fliers glide to the ground in a relatively safe/no damage manner in the direction they were last facing/headed? They're paralyzed, but presumably the wings were spread out when it happened.

 

[Greenfield]

Because the rules say so?

PARALYSIS
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.)
A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

There's always a problem when we try to apply physics or someone's idea of "common sense" to a game, particularly one with magic in it. Far too many gamers I've encountered will appeal to "common sense" when the rules don't favor them, then reverse course and appeal to the rules when common sense says they're wrong.

The rules may not always make sense, but they're documented and consistent, and when an argument comes up you can open a book and point to them.

 

[Umbran]

It's neither the weight nor the mass of the armor that slows him down; it's the fact that he's wearing it.

Or, it is an artifact of applying systems that aren't exactly paragons of continuity...