Foiling the Silence spell

[Goldmoon]

This spell would work too.

Ventriloquism
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Intelligible sound, usually speech
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted
with)
Spell Resistance: No
You can make your voice (or any sound
that you can normally make vocally) seem
to issue from someplace else, such as from
another creature, a statue, from behind a
door, down a passage, etc. You can speak in
any language you know. With respect to
such voices and sounds, anyone who hears
the sound and rolls a successful save
recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).
Focus: A parchment rolled up into a
small cone.

It does not actually come from somewhere else. It just seems to.

 

[nightjackal1977]

Contigent Spell it (or have someone craft contigent on them, See complete arcane), use a Silent Metamagic Rod, or have it casted before they come (1 min/level) if bad guy knows they silence. Permancy on the caster. Lots of ways to have it ready.

I was always of the opinion that if the PCs do the same tactic all the time, it would be know that the groups do that a lot and spellcasters would be prepared for it.

Or have them face his appentice with the BBEG watching the fight to see there tactics. Which would allow him to prepare for the group to come.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wands of Teleportation, Dim Door, Dimension Hop, Dimension Step To get the caster out of the area still work.

This does not work. Spell Trigger items still require a word be spoken.

Ventriqism to move his voice outside the area (if you rule that works).

Even if you allowed this (which a DM shouldn't since the spell states "seems to issue" instead of "issues"), the caster would have to cast Ventriloquism before the Silence occurred since Ventriloquism has a verbal component.

Lots of Charged items work. Since you have it have low charges to prevent.

I do not understand this low charges comment.

Charged items only work if they are Use Activated.

Spell Completion, Spell Trigger, and Command Word items do not work in a Silence.

FWIW, we've house ruled silence. Spellcasters can still use verbal components (used but not heard) if they make a Will save.

Just out of curiosity, why? Will saves are pretty easy for spell casters to make. This seems to be a way to take one of the few effective anti-spell caster tactics and water it and the Silent Spell feat down.


Sure, a Readied Silence is an auto-Dispel, for the first Silence spell cast. After that, though, the target of the Silence spell should know to change his tactics.

One simple tactic is for a spell caster A to move next to spell caster B who cast Silence at him. Since most Silence spells are cast in the air (i.e. no save), that means that spell caster B can at best Ready to cast more Silence spells. If he does anything else, spell caster A can then cast. Even if spell caster B casts the Silence directly on spell caster A (and he fails his WIll save), spell caster A can still hang around spell caster B, forcing him to move away (and provoke an AoO) in order to cast.

There are other better tactics as well such as having a few Silent Spell spells available. The thing about Silence is that it is not a harmful spell. It is a battlefield control spell (minimizing enemy spell casting). Enemies should often be able to move away and find other ways to still cast. Even if cast directly on an enemy spell caster and he fails his will save, this is still not as bad as save or die. It's save or temporarily lose abilities at worse.

 

[Nail]

Just out of curiosity, why? Will saves are pretty easy for spell casters to make. This seems to be a way to take one of the few effective anti-spell caster tactics and water it and the Silent Spell feat down.

I'd be happy to answer...is this appropriate for a Rules Forum? Just for arguments sake, I'll talk about why it needs changing. My specific House Rule is irrelevant.


As written, the silence spell is too powerful for a second level spell. Name a spell less than 6th level that has the same effect:

• No verbal components (or command words).
• No save, if cast nearby (or, my favorite, on the Monk who moves near the caster).
• Negates sonic attacks and spells and language dependent spells. Not resistance, mind you: complete immunity. Compare to Resist Energy (Sor/Wiz 2, Clr 2, etc), or Mind Blank.
• Negates listen checks, some kinds of blindsense, etc.

IMO, it's just too good for a 2nd level spell.

To put this in perspective, when I played a cleric (all the way to Clr 21), I could always count on this spell to shut down spell casters. Always. Sure, many enemy casters could spend a round to get out in some way....but that's their action spent, isn't it?

And often the enemy casters would be in a defensible position, surrounded by their minions....and be faced with a choice: #1) Move, and be in a tactically worse position, or #2) stay, and be unable to contribute to the battle.

I'll admit, I loved the spell. I usually had 2 preped each day, just in case.

Then there was the usefulness when ambushing opponents in dungeons. Our whole party could charge up to the door, top speed...and who would hear us? Nobody, that's who. Heh, heh.

All this, for a second level spell? Give me a break.

 

[nightjackal1977]

Can't see how command word activated items are useful in a silence if you can't vocalize the command word...
And wait 'till they cast Evard's Black Tentacles into the silence ... that's a mess !

Yeah though at will/ mental should still work. Right? So use other items with said ablities.

On side note...easiest way to prevent it would be to do contigent spell, or Silent Spell to Dim door or other spell ready.

Personally I like turning the tables on the PCs, There are some nice wonderous items that are 1 use.

Oh...just make him have potions with Dimension Hop or Step (in PH2).

Oh on the low charges was to keep the PCs from getting to many magic items....forgot to mention reason why I said that.

Last point, Emenies are not dumb and if you caster has a int of 16+ I would think he would prepare for that tactic as well. Or have a contigentence plan for it.

Moble Spell casting feat even lets him do his standard spell action after moving out of the range of the silence spell.

 

[Nail]

Tell you what: Would you allow this spell, as written?

Nullify High Temperatures
Abjuration
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)

Upon the casting of this spell, a moderate temperature prevails in the affected area. All excess heat is stopped: Fire is impossible, spells with fire descriptors cannot be cast, and no heat whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against fire or heat-based attacks.

 

[smootrk]

I would allow sonic spells to negate or cancel silence spells, much like light cancels darkness (or the reverse). The spells would have to be cast from outside the silent area into the effect, or be used somehow without V (verbal/auditory) component. I would probably allow the spell to be cast specifically as a cancellation effect, even from within the field of Silence.

 

[Nail]

Yeah though at will/ mental should still work. Right? So use other items with said ablities.

And what items (in the DMG) would those be, eh?

 

[Gansk]

I am also getting slammed by this spell and consider it way too powerful. Here's the house rule I will be adopting in the next campaign:

Compare invisibility and silence - there are both glamers, a subset of the illusion school.

Invisibility creates an illusion to others that you are not there, but you really are there. You can see yourself, read scrolls, etc.

So why shouldn't the sound in a silenced area really exist, just not heard?

The implications are that all spellcasters in the area are deaf with a flat 20% SF chance. Language dependent, mind affecting spells are still negated, but sonic energy is not (you can still use protection from energy against sonic attacks).

You can still use the silence spell to sneak around with this interpretation.

 

[nightjackal1977]

And what items (in the DMG) would those be, eh?

After quick glance....not much, but can use the continous effect created or use actived..on an item. Just change the cost as per the rules.