Folding space and the Astral Plane

[Mythmere]

I'm preparing for an epic campaign, and am working on the global issues and realities that the players will eventually face. One of these is the matter of the astral plane, the ethereal plane, and the capabilities of magic on the prime material.

The astral plane is normally encountered as a thin film in the middle of a gate spell; you transit from one plane to another instantaneously. Actually entering the plane is boring, as it is a featureless expanse of grey nothingness. I'd like to have a middle ground between the outer planes and the inner planes. WOTC postulates the outlands, a single plane connected to all the others by gates. I don't like the idea of a single connective plane; the astral already does that. I'd like the astral to be a useful plane in and of itself, filled with islands and gates, and with ships and magic plying the gaps. I still recall the fantastic image from Dragon magazine's Wormy that showed Solomoriah the shadowcat breaking into a transplanar realm filled with bubbles of different worlds. That's how I view the connective plane - a place in which magic and knowledge are key. Now, I can justify this by the fact that the Gate spell doesn't work for movement on the prime material plane; to get to different parts of the PM, you would have to go from one plane to another, then gate again.

Please offer suggestions on how to replace the Outlands with the Astral Plane; why not gate to some outer plane then back to the desired location on the PM? Why might ships be traveling in the Astral Plane? Any other suggestions or rule pitfalls that might cause me problems?

Secondly: folding space. I'd like to get mechanics for making a place bigger on the inside than the outside. A bag of holding does this with a bubble of extraplanar space on the inside, like a gate only it's apparently more like a fold in the prime material. Rope trick does the same thing. Any ideas on where these interdimensional spaces are in terms of the planes?

 

[Davelozzi]

Did you see this yet?

http://www.montecook.com/diary.html

 

[Mythmere]

Did you see this yet?

http://www.montecook.com/diary.html

Thanks, I hadn't seen this before. Actually, though, it sounds like I'm at the same point as Monte when he looked at the Wheel cosmology, compared it to Moorcock, and found Moorcock's vision to be more compelling. I'm also a big fan of Elric, etc., and I suspect my own problems with the Wheel stem from the same literary inspirations.

My goal now is to establish some theory for an alternate cosmology. I know what I want it to look like, but it has to fit with the existing spells. I'd like the prime material to be an infinite number of unconnected bubbles in the astral, either joined by the ethereal or each with its own ethereal plane. These bubbles would share the characteristics of prime material, but I don't know what would make them a single plane if they aren't physically connected. It's mind-bending, but I want the players to encounter mind-bending facts when they get to this point. Only I have to create it first. That's why I'm asking for help.

HELP!

 

[Mythmere]

Anyone else have ideas?

 

[Whisper72]

Hmmm.... have you any of the Spelljammer stuff, where the worlds are described as being inside huge crystal spheres that float into 'stuff' called the phlogiston and all that? Might give you some inspiration.

 

[Piratecat]

I think you can do a lot with the traditional planar rules just by manipulating the special effects. The astral plane can look like anything you want it to; I also love that image from Wormy, and I can see why you want to use it.

The astral has always been a transitive plane. It has traditionally connected the top layers of all the outer planes. It also connects the Outlands, of course, and there are gates (portals) from the Outlands to the outer alignment-based planes -- but I think you can easily make the astral into the "shortcut," where traders ply the astral winds with their ships.

 

[Mythmere]

I think you can do a lot with the traditional planar rules just by manipulating the special effects. The astral plane can look like anything you want it to; I also love that image from Wormy, and I can see why you want to use it.

The astral has always been a transitive plane. It has traditionally connected the top layers of all the outer planes. It also connects the Outlands, of course, and there are gates (portals) from the Outlands to the outer alignment-based planes -- but I think you can easily make the astral into the "shortcut," where traders ply the astral winds with their ships.

Thanks, Piratecat!
Here is how I've structured things: please comment further if you have any thoughts!

1) I've resolved my folded space issue (you're just twisting prime material, not affecting other planes, which explains the relatively low level of the magic involved).

2) The astral is important because, per the rules, "Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal desmesnes if they so desire" - description of Gate spell. Contested planes or multi-deity planes (ie the larger ones) won't have such locks for the entire plane (I assume a key of some kind permits gating into locked planes; a good source of adventures). The astral projection spell suggests that a gate is not necessary for an astral traveler to enter another plane: "To enter [another plane], you leave the astral plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter." - Astral Projection spell descr. A gate spell can be locked out, but astral projection does not require a gate. We must assume that being in the astral itself makes some other kind of access possible; an actual boundary (this is the MOP term: ie, a permeable connection) must connect each plane to the astral from (at the least, at a single point on each plane). Otherwise, astral projection would require some other means of moving from the astral to the targeted plane; a gate. I assume this permeable boundary is a planar anchor of some kind connecting the plane to the astral. Such points might be well defended in locked planes, but accessible to peaceful traders or well-armed raiders who take the time to actually move from one place to another in the astral.

Why don't the traders and raiders just gate to the boundary? I assume a gate or teleport cannot target astral substance; only the material floating in the astral can be located (astral substance is utterly indistinguishable). Matter in the astral, on the other hand, is not actually astral. It's matter. For all intents and purposes, a speck of material floating in the astral is a demiplane. The only distinction is that matter IN the astral has a boundary with the astral in all dimensions, whereas "true" planes and demiplanes have only the one anchoring boundary I have proposed to explain the astral projection spell. Okay, so how does Astral Projection find the right place if a gate spell can't? Maybe because it's a divine spell. Maybe Astral projection can be blocked like a gate spell, but the PH fails to mention it. Maybe because it is a specifically astral spell that can work within the structure of the astral itself rather than being designed to punch through the astral, as a gate spell is designed to do. I favor the latter explanation, because it requires the least nerfing.

Regardless of the explanation of Astral Projection, Astral Projection can be understood to be useless for any purpose other than arriving at the boundary-point in projected form. You can't use it to "spot" for a gate spell as a forward observer, because you still won't see anything other than indistinguishable astral substance; there's nothing for the gate spell to grab hold of. If you want to get there physically, you have to travel physically in the astral from a gate-accessible point, ie, an island in the astral or one of the other places where there is an astral landmark.

And there is a major downside to astral projection. As I read it, you can't take anything back with you. If you want to buy something cool in the astral plane, you've got to be there physically.

Second, I assume an astral-to-astral gate is not possible, just as a prime material to prime material gate is not possible.

Economic consequences? If an island in the astral has a product (souls, magic items, information, etc), the only way to move it to a protected plane is to ship it through the astral, physically. Once your ship is there, you could use the ship as the target for your gate, so many astral trade-ships might not carry their goods; they would be spotters, heavily armed to protect themselves (the value of such a ship would be huge), but actually gating the trade goods to the ship upon arrival.

There. My theory of the astral is developed. It is entirely conceivable that traders and raiders would fill the astral plane, and the islands of physical matter in the astral plane will have huge economic importance to such trade.

 

[Piratecat]

Sounds good. Did you ever read the 2e Planescape guide to the Astral? It was quite impressive, and filled with fun plot hooks.

 

[Shemeska]

I'll spare the Planescape gushing on my part. However I don't like the Astral bridging the gap between the Outer, Prime, and Inner planes in 3e. The Ethereal used to be the transitive between Inner and Prime, with the Astral the transitive between the Prime and Outer. Now the Ethereal has no real use in the 3e reworking of the planes. Then there was always the supposed Ordial plane that was the unknown but postulated true transitive that bridged them all. Lovely little mystery. 3e's treatment of the astral breaks that setup entirely.

But as Piratecat said the Astral as detailed in 'Guide to the Astral' is already a pretty happening place. So was the Ethereal in 'Guide to the Ethereal'.

Btw when it talks about Astrally projecting and then moving out of the Astral to another plane and forming a new body on that plane it means by way of gates or more commonly color pools. Your real body is still stuck on the prime asleep and all, but your astral form creates a new pseudo-corporeal form for itself when you then hop that colorpool to say, Gehenna. When you get killed by the Yugoloths there in short order you don't die but that newly crafted body vanishes and you get shunted back into your mortal body back on the prime where you left it.

Astral projection is in many ways extremely useful and also limited in other ways. You don't have the danger of being killed by most things (except those always pesky Githyanki with silver chord cutting blades, and as always Astral Dreadnoughts) and you can pull a similar trick on other planes by jumping into a color pool while projected onto the Astral. However you can't easily take anything back with you as you mentioned.

And why replace the Outlands with the Astral? Two totally different places with totally different roles. I think you may be misunderstanding a bit of cosmology here. The Outlands doesn't bridge between Outer and Inner planes at all. It -is- an Outer plane and just sits as a hub between the Great Wheel of the outer planes, connected to each of them by the portal in each of the ring of gate towns. Sigil, the City of Doors, sits at the center of the Outlands atop the Infinite Spire. Sigil itself is connected to every plane by a myriad of gates formed within almost any bound space in the city, assuming you have the key that happens to activate it.

(so much for no Planescape gushing, mea culpa)

 

[Thotas]

That link to Monte's comments was fascinating. The beginning of it outlined about 50% of why I don't like Planescape (ie, I hate the Great Wheel) ... and he's a main designer of the setting! Furthermore, he then describes the Moorcockian alternative that I much prefer to a "T"! Impressive that Monte's that flexible. And with "Beyond Infinite Doors", he just made a sale.