Followup Damage

[Setaroth]

Errr...ummm...thanks for the replies! Heh heh. I didn't think this one would have so much wiggle room, but it apparently does, given customer service's reply.

 

[Zsig]

That's actually an interesting question.

There's no attack roll involved on the second damage. It's fixed just like Booming Blade (Swordmage at-will).

Even though Giogre's argument sounds reasonable, it's not when you take into consider multiple attack powers like fireball, or even for the physical attack powers ,say twin strike.

But otherwise, yeah, looking into Booming Blade I can see how enhancement bonus is not added to damage from Hellish Rebuke. Other example, All Bets Are Off (Pit Fighter 11).

This is an issue that's not clearly defined by RAW

 

[James McMurray]

The rules don't say anything about requiring an attack roll. Adding that requirement is a house rule, not a reaction to ambiguity. Page 255 has no ambiguity. It has a rule that some people don't like and choose to change. But it is a very straightforward statement "Magic weapons and implements grant their
enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls" is hard to construe as meaning "Magic weapons and implements grant their
enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls except in circumstances A, B, and C."

It's not a bad house rule (I've seen a lot worse). But it's definitely a house rule.

 

[DracoSuave]

Booming Blade actually has a lot of interesting quirks about it.

Q1) Does Raging Storm add to the initial damage?

Yes. The power is a power with the Thunder keyword. Raging Storm doesn't ask what the type of damage dealt is, it just adds to all damage rolls with such a power.

Q2) Does Weapon Focus add to the initial damage?

Yes. The power is a power with the Weapon keyword.

Q3) Does Raging Storm add to the punishment damage?

Yes. Raging Storm does not add to damage rolls of -attacks- but all powers, and this is a damage roll, therefore it applies.

Q4) Does Weapon Focus add to the punishment damage?

Yes. This is a power with the Weapon keyword, and even tho there is no [W] component, this is still a damage roll using the weapon, which is by definition happening with the Weapon keyword.

Q5) What about enhancement bonuses?

Yes. Again, power with Weapon keyword gets enhancement bonuses when a weapon is used with it. As well, you get the critical bonus of the magic weapon, and if the power has a Weapon keyword, you get the high crit property of a weapon if you're using it. You don't get the high crit weapon property if you're using it as an implement, but you DO get the critical ability from it's magic enhancement.


One moral of this story, is if you're using a Swordmage, if you love your DM, and your other players, use power cards and pre-add up all your bonuses for each power individually because it will change based on keyword.

 

[Zsig]

Booming Blade actually has a lot of interesting quirks about it.

-snip-

Q4) Does Weapon Focus add to the punishment damage?

Yes. This is a power with the Weapon keyword, and even tho there is no [W] component, this is still a damage roll using the weapon, which is by definition happening with the Weapon keyword.

Even though the rest seems right, I wouldn't be so sure about this. The "punishment damage" as you named it is not coming from the weapon. I'm not sure, but it just seem fixed damage. The Weapon keyword is already being factored into the 1[W] + Int damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

Nope. The Weapon keyword means that all the damage is done by the weapon. Every aspect of the power is altered by the weapon. If it were not the case, and that [W] was what defined weapon damage, than swordmage implement powers with [W] damage would be altered by Weapon Focus, and they are not. Therefore [W] is not the defined trait of how a weapon deals damage.

 

[Zsig]

Nope. The Weapon keyword means that all the damage is done by the weapon. Every aspect of the power is altered by the weapon. If it were not the case, and that [W] was what defined weapon damage, than swordmage implement powers with [W] damage would be altered by Weapon Focus, and they are not. Therefore [W] is not the defined trait of how a weapon deals damage.

I'm just saying to not be so sure about that, as there's lots of controversial stuff on those [W] implement powers, and supposedly, there's an errata on the way.

Also, just because A is false it doesn't mean B has to be true.

 

[Griogre]

Griogre - that's a perfectly reasonable house rule to take (though it has far ranging ripples you should factor in and adjust powers for), though I'll note you should clearly spell it out for figuring out all of the other powers that have secondary damage rolls, multiple damage rolls, aura damage rolls, entering and starting turn in zones, etc. Or perhaps you're just house ruling a couple powers, like hellish rebuke and dire radiance, nerfing warlocks slightly (which I don't think is a good idea).

It is not, however, the RAW. There is no ambiguity on this issue.

At this point in time, I do believe my interpretation is RAW. I just read pg 225 and see it differently. You see “attack rolls and damage rolls” as applying to each dice of each attack. I believe that the plural to “rolls” refers to the different magic items and different implements referred at the start of the sentence. I believe this because the first two paragraphs are all written with plurals. I bolded the plurals below.

For items that give an enhancement bonus, this entry specifies what that bonus applies to: AC, other defenses, or attack rolls and damage rolls.

Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon or the implement (or directly from the weapon or the implement, for items that have attack powers).

Thus the plural attack rolls and damage rolls is referring to the plural Magic weapons and implements. This pattern continues through much of the Enhancement text but I didn't want to quote more than a couple of paragraphs. That is the basis for me believing that you apply each bonus from magic weapons and implements *once* to each attack.

*shrug* I do agree that reasonable people could differ on this.

 

[eamon]

I believe that the plural to “rolls” refers to the different magic items and different implements referred at the start of the sentence. I believe this because the first two paragraphs are all written with plurals. I bolded the plurals below.

Note that the sentence is referring to what each (singular) bonus applies to.

For items that give an enhancement bonus, this entry specifies what that bonus applies to: AC, other defenses, or attack rolls and damage rolls.

Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon or the implement (or directly from the weapon or the implement, for items that have attack powers).

There's no distinction made as to which attack rolls should be affected and which should not - the text speaks of attack rolls in general. The text also points out that the power states if it is performed via a weapon or implement. The section on how to read a power (p. 54) and specifically the bit about keywords on the opposite page explain that the weapon/implement keywords "identify items used with the power.", and mentions again that the enhancement bonus (and proficiency bonus, for a weapon) applies to attack rolls "when you use a power that has the associated keyword". Note also that the concept of "base attack bonus" as explained on p. 274 is per-power (which you should calculate for all powers including basic attacks) and includes "an enhancement bonus (usually from a magic weapon or implement)"! The attack roll in general is explained to consist simply of "the power's" base attack bonus, situational modifiers (combat advantage etc), and bonuses and penalties from powers affecting you.

It seems to me that you add the appropriate bonuses to all attack and damage rolls made by the power.

For (a confusing) example, the pit fighter's All Bets are Off would gain the full enhancement bonus to both primary and secondary attack and damage rolls. Weapon Focus applies to "damage rolls with your chosen weapon group", and counterintuitively could apply as well. Certainly, this is unfortunately, but the converse simply doesn't work. If you dont' let the enhancement bonus apply, then the secondary attack will eventually miss almost always, being up to +10 behind the primary attack(weapon prof. bonus, enh. bonus, fighter weapon specialization).

The rules are obviously simplified, but what would be the point of tracking separate attack bonuses just for such specific cases? The powers would simply become more complex to account for their own bonuses to compensate for the lack of a weapon bonus and the balance would be almost the same.

In short, the definitive sections to refer to are the "attack roll" section on p. 274 and the damage roll on p. 276. The section on magic items is simply summarizing the purpose of an enhancement bonus, and if you read it closely, you'll probably come to the same conclusion, but it's easier to just look to the definitions of attack roll and damage roll - which take into consideration the enhancement bonus of magic weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Q4) Does Weapon Focus add to the punishment damage?

Yes. This is a power with the Weapon keyword, and even tho there is no [W] component, this is still a damage roll using the weapon, which is by definition happening with the Weapon keyword.

Q5) What about enhancement bonuses?

Yes. Again, power with Weapon keyword gets enhancement bonuses when a weapon is used with it. As well, you get the critical bonus of the magic weapon, and if the power has a Weapon keyword, you get the high crit property of a weapon if you're using it.

Commander's Strike?

-Hyp.