D&D 3E/3.5 Fond Memories of ENWorld and the 3E Launch

[ShinHakkaider]

"How many WotC 3.5 edition books do you own, Clark?"

Lots and lots! Too many to count. You should see my basement. I have probably 6+ bookcases full of roleplaying game stuff. My wife cant stand it. And dont forget, in addition to all the stuff I buy I also get lots of stuff for free. So much I could never use it all, let alone actually even read most of it.

I dont get that as a reason not to change. Not criticizing, just saying. I'm a gamer. I spend tons of money on game stuff. I have subscribed to Dungeon forever. I bought lots and lots of modules from TSR I never ran (including some really lame ones). I have boxed sets full of stuff I've never used. And that is before 3E. I got more of that with 3E. And I wont bat an eye getting more with 4E. I'm a gamer. I buy game stuff. I dont get this "I have to use up what I have first" thought process. Not criticizing, just saying. Its always there for you. It just means you have more stuff to work with. And staying with 3E wont fix that. Lets say there was not a 4E. You would still have more 3E stuff than you could use. Its not like companies would stop making it. You'd never catch up. You wont ever catch up.

That sounds like an after the fact excuse to justify not switching. I dont see the logic in it otherwise.

I've never yet in all my years met a gamer who said "I have to use the game stuff I have before I buy more." Not until someone wanted an argument not to change editions, that is....

Not judging. Just saying.

Clark

I know this isnt aimed at me, but I feel the need to respond anyway. I pretty much feel the exact same way that Davemage does. I buy adventures mostly. I buy adventures because I'm not inclined nor do I have the time to create my own anymore. So I buy them.

I buy Dungeon. I buy Goodman Games DCC. I buy Green Ronin. I buy WOTC (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and Greyhawk Ruins). I even buy Necromancer Games (Rappan Athuk:Reloaded). I buy these things because at some point I plan on being able to use them without having to put a lot of work into converting them into another system, or re-writing statblocks or having to re-asses how skills or special abilities work. Because, for me, if I gotta go and redo all that stuff I was better off NOT buying the material and creating my own.

You see what I'm saying. I buy for ease of use. This edition upgrade pretty much makes everything that's not fluff USELESS. So that is why I'm not going to 4th Edition. I have a lot of material left to use and as long as I can put together a 3.5 group I'll do so. If 4E was such that it would still allow me to use my 3.5 material with next to no or minimal conversion I would be more inclined to upgrade. But at this point, according to previews and the play test blogs it might as well be a different system.

Now you may or may not still get that. Whether that has to do with your decision to make 4E products yourself, I dont know. I'm not accusing, I'm just saying. As someone who owns quite a few Necro Games books and modules I can say that I'll miss not supporting your 4E products but this is what it is and it sounds like that I'm not your target market anymore anyway.

For me it was about good product and ease of use. Once again you take that ease of use out of it then you lose (lost) me. Not complaining, I'm just saying.

 

[Lorthanoth]

Bizarrely, I don't post much here, but I've been coming here since 3E was announced and I did a search for any info online. Eric Noah's site was my oasis, and I lapped up that (tenous metaphor extended) watery rules revelation goodness. I even got a scoop on the front page once!

I'm not sure I get the 4E is too soon vibe, but hey it's an opinion. If you don't want it now, maybe you'll get it in a couple of years. It's all good.

Can't remember why I had to rejoin years later.. mayeb because my email account was no longer valid...

 

[RyanD]

One thing I think people mis-remember is how powerful the internet was in 1999. We had data that showed that a small number, perhaps less than 30% of the market "used the world-wide web" in 1998. Eric's site was like a megaphone: there just weren't that many places to get D&D content, so eventually a huge percentage of the on-line audience migrated to it. That allowed us to use it for leverage. We could get info out to Eric, and then it would propagate rapidly to a large percentage of the internet-connected D&D player community.

But we couldn't just rely on the internet. We still had to spend a lot of time on print media, especially DRAGON magazine. A whole lot of people reading Dragon didn't use the web, or if they did, they used it sporadically for shopping, not for "reading about D&D".

This time 'round, ENWorld is important, but not critical. There are hundreds of places to reach gamers on the web. WotC, for its part, wants to make Gleexmax/D&D On-Line a premiere part of that system. So now there's a conflict of interest. If WotC pushed content out to the internet at large, it devalues content it wants to put on its own site. Whereas my team had some small battles with DRAGON about what we were "leaking", everyone knew that there were still clear divisions in the on-line vs. print audience. Today, those lines are gone.

You can't put that lightening back in the bottle; each new generation needs to evolve its own success strategy.

Ryan

 

[DaveMage]

One thing I think people mis-remember is how powerful the internet was in 1999. We had data that showed that a small number, perhaps less than 30% of the market "used the world-wide web" in 1998. Eric's site was like a megaphone: there just weren't that many places to get D&D content, so eventually a huge percentage of the on-line audience migrated to it. That allowed us to use it for leverage. We could get info out to Eric, and then it would propagate rapidly to a large percentage of the internet-connected D&D player community.

But we couldn't just rely on the internet. We still had to spend a lot of time on print media, especially DRAGON magazine. A whole lot of people reading Dragon didn't use the web, or if they did, they used it sporadically for shopping, not for "reading about D&D".

This time 'round, ENWorld is important, but not critical. There are hundreds of places to reach gamers on the web. WotC, for its part, wants to make Gleexmax/D&D On-Line a premiere part of that system. So now there's a conflict of interest. If WotC pushed content out to the internet at large, it devalues content it wants to put on its own site. Whereas my team had some small battles with DRAGON about what we were "leaking", everyone knew that there were still clear divisions in the on-line vs. print audience. Today, those lines are gone.

You can't put that lightening back in the bottle; each new generation needs to evolve its own success strategy.

Ryan

Ryan - how well do you think WotC has done with the marketing for 4E at this point?

 

[Castlin]

I lurked the heck out of Mr. Noah's 3e site, and subjected my players at the time to a horrific, chimeric mishmash of 2nd edition and 3e rumors ("Everything is skills now! Put more points in Longsword!"). It was a good but scary time... and I think I'm gearing up to do it again.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I too think that the difference between the advent of 3e and now is interesting. I found Eric Noah's 3E site by accident while in a very dry spell between gaming groups and a simlar dry spell in my {now previous} marriage. The rumor-mongering and bits of mechanical fluff kept me focused and entertained for months before the game finally came out. {Used to be 'Justin Cooper' back then}

Since then alot of things have changed. I now have a regular gaming group and alot more fredom in choosing what I do and how I spend my money. As a self-acknowledged tweak-a-holic, the opportunity to tweak an entirely new system is a draw that is hard to avoid. I am interested about 4e, altho I agree that the marketing method needs *alot* of work.
for instance, the Rules Compendium looks like a solid buy.. however my group is pretty assured of switching over to 4E.... soo... guess what I am not buying


In regard to the higher volume of 4e-naysayers at ENWorld this time... thats partially a matter of size. My screen shows 1,647 users *currently* online. I don't think we had that much traffic back in the days. If you ascribe to the 10% rule, that makes over 100 currently online posters the sort that will rail indecently against whatever topic they feel needs to be railed against.

Of course, the 'funniest' part, IMHO, of the nay-sayers present today is that fact that we really do not know much. I prefer waiting to see more before making a final judgement {and maybe buying the Rules Compendium anyway..}

 

[BASHMAN]

It's definitely a different beast this time around; now, there's a whole little army ready to help with the flow of information instead of one guy and his e-mailed scoops.

QFT. Your site was getting SCOOPS. 4e is a very different animal indeed. Just tiny teaspoons of fluff every now and then are released. I remember those good old days, when I could click on Eric Noah's page and find some good-old-fashioned CRUNCH to sink my teeth into. Now we get some tiny hint that the flavor text of demons and devils is going to be different and that wizards have "traditions" instead of "schools". If these are the kind of changes they are announcing, it makes me wonder if what is coming is even going to be worth waiting for-- obviously nothing big is coming mechanics wise or else we would have heard something.

Unless their marketing department recently switched from regular to crack, which I suppose is possible, since the 3E launch hype was huge, and Eric's site was a major part of building that hype. The more information released, the more people wanted to get 3e.

Right now, from what little they are telling us, it seems like there is nothing to brag about, or Wizards is making D&D even more corporate w/ all this secrecy, which is another turn-off from it.

 

[The Little Raven]

Right now, from what little they are telling us, it seems like there is nothing to brag about, or Wizards is making D&D even more corporate w/ all this secrecy, which is another turn-off from it.

They're release two preview books that give a lot of insight into exactly what they're doing. If they are releasing those books, why would they just give that information away in advance?

 

[BASHMAN]

They're release two preview books that give a lot of insight into exactly what they're doing. If they are releasing those books, why would they just give that information away in advance?

Right. Why give away free publicity when they can charge people for it. Another "shame on you" point for Wizards.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I remember some epic discussions in the old DND email listserv prior to the release of 3e, one of which linked to Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News page, which is how I found that site.

The present reminds of that time a little bit, particularly in the strenuous discussions of the tidbits of info, though it really feels like we know a ton more these days because of the internet (designers' blogs, etc.) and the established D&D community online exemplified by EN World.