For a Rogue, when is feinting better than getting 2 attacks?

[Tidus4444]

I've got a 4th level Rogue with 10 ranks in bluff and have been considering using feinting. Now my quesiton is this: How much sneak attack damage do I have to do for a feint-attack combo to do mroe damage than attack-attack? A link to that munchkin calculator would be apprecitated...
EDIT: Err I mean 7 ranks in bluff with +3 due to charisma

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Well, I'm playing a Rogue 1/Fighter 2 who's soul fighting style is feints, trips, and general tumbling around the battlefield. If you plan to use Feints, get the Improved Feint feat. Free action and you get all your attacks...then you don't have to WORRY about losing those attacks. Its definatly worth it.

 

[greymarch]

If you plan to use Feints, get the Improved Feint feat. Free action and you get all your attacks...then you don't have to WORRY about losing those attacks. Its definatly worth it.

The improved feint feat makes a feint a move action, instead of an attack action. It definitely is not a free action. Here is a link to the 3.5 SRD for proof:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

The improved feint feat makes a feint a move action, instead of an attack action. It definitely is not a free action. Here is a link to the 3.5 SRD for proof:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf

Bleh. Need to stay awake more often when I post. Still, I think feinting is very worth it. Anytime a Rogue can get thier Sneak Attack is worth it, and can definatly crank out more damage than the usual attacks, especially at 4th level.

 

[Olive]

The point is that a rogue will get all their attacks, just the round AFTER they feint.

Without Imp. Feint:
Round one - rogue moves next to the orge and feints
Round 2 - rogue unleashes full attack action sneak attack mayhem

With Imp. Feint:
Round 1 - rogue moves up to the ogre and stabs him normally
round 2 - rogue feints as a move action and sneak attacks as an attack action.

Of course inbetween rounds 1 and 2 in either case the rogue's getting grappled, but that's a different thread.

 

[frankthedm]

The point is that a rogue will get all their attacks, just the round AFTER they feint.

Without Imp. Feint:
Round one - rogue moves next to the orge and feints
Round 2 - rogue unleashes full attack action sneak attack mayhem

sorry

SRD

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

so one attack gets the bonus

 

[Rev_Spider]

Note that with the advent of 3.5 you can split your full atack action over 2 rounds, so you can:
Round 1: Feint, start FAA
Round 2: make the FAA, then move (or feint again)

This assumes you have improved feint, of course, and it's really only useful if you have more iterative attacks than sneak attack dice... but still, I figured I'd point it out.

 

[drnuncheon]

Note that with the advent of 3.5 you can split your full atack action over 2 rounds

No, you can't. PHB 142, under Start/Complete Full Round Action: "You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw."

J

 

[Tidus4444]

I think at some point it actually becomes better for the rogue to take the full round action than to to take the move-equiv action. For example: lvl 20 Rogue feints, atks getting his 10d6 sneak attack on 1 attack.
lvl 20 Rogue feints, waits till next round, and gets 10d6 sneak attack on 4 attacks (assuming bow w/ rapid shot). Still, a nifty feat. Also you DO lose the attacks. Watch these two examples:
round 1: Rogue feints
round 2: Rogue uses 2 attacks
round 3: another feint
round 4: another attack
versus:
round 1: attack
round 2: attack
round 3: attack
round 4: attack

So my question is: at what point does the sneak attack damage outweigh the lost attacks? Again, posting the damage calculator would be quite helpful.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

If you are using the class books, there are two feats out of Song & Silence to consider. Expert Tactician & Quicker than the Eye.

Expert Tactician
Prereq: Dex 13+, bab +2, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: You can make one extra melee attack (or do anything that can be done as a melee touch attack, including attempts to disarm, trip, or make a grab to start a grapple) against one foe who is within melee reach and denied a Dex bonus against your melee attacks for any reason. You take your extra attack when it's your turn, either before or after your regular action. If several foes are denied Dex bonus against your attacks, you can use thisfeat against only one of them.

Quicker than the Eye
Prereq: Dex 19+
Benefit: While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move-equivalent actoin, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial (stadard or move-equivalent) action, opposed by the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere while you take a partial action (standard or move-equivalent). If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dex bonus to AC.

Round begins:
Standard action - Feign, you win the check, the target now loses his Dex bonus vs. you allowing you to make an immediate attack via Expert Tactician.
Move-equivalent action - Quicker than the eye, you win the check, attack target who is again denied his Dex bonus vs. you.

Note: Expert Tactician only gives you ONE extra attack per round, which is why the Quicker than the Eye move does not grant you two attacks.

And there you go, two sneak attacks in one round. Mind you, this is assuming you win the opposed checks, which for the feigning was made much more difficult under 3.5 (was definiately needed).