D&D 4E For DMs - Level Demographics in the 4e Forgotten Realms (etc)

[S'mon]

The 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting places the 'big name' NPCs at very high power levels, in accordance with the traditional FR approach they tend to be Epic level. Eg:

Fzoul Chembryl - Level 28 elite
Jarlaxle Baenre - Level 21 elite
Szass Tam, ruler of Thay - Level 30 elite

The 'sample NPCs' tend to be Paragon level, eg Naramus, a Netheril Knight of Shade, is Level 11 elite.

By contrast, in the Nevewinter Campaign Setting the 'big names' are only Heroic tier:

Lord Dagult Neverember - Level 7
Valindra, Thayan BBEG - Level 9 elite
Clariburnus, Netherese Prince of Shade - Level 10 elite - toughest guy in the book.

Monster levels are also much lower, typically 5-15 levels below 4e standard. So you get a situation a listed where eg level-21 Jarlaxle is served by level 6 drow; level 10 Valindra is a major servant of level 30 Szass Tam.

For GMs who are running Forgotten Realms or other settings, and who give some thought to a consistent or semi-consistent NPC power level*, whether or not you use the NCS, I was wondering how you handle NPC power demographics? Do you level down the Epic FRCS NPCs? Do you add 10 levels to the Neverwinter NPCs? Do they both exist at the listed levels?

More broadly, what sort of renown/impact do you think FR PCs should have at Heroic, Paragon & Epic tiers? The FRCG seems to think you should be Epic level before you can take on Manshoon, Fzoul or Szass Tam. At Paragon you're just getting started as a renowned character - if Cormyran at 11th level you might get to be a Purple Dragon Knight or War Wizard, for instance. The NCG seems to think you should be defeating any BBEG while in the Heroic tier, and doesn't really seem to envisage play beyond 10th.

I'm personally leaning to something between these two extremes, which would potentially require both up-levelling and de-levelling the given NPCs. How do you handle it?

*I'm less interested in the "tie all enemies closely to current PC level/only matters when PCs fight them" approach, for purposes of this discussion. I'm interested in questions of eg the relative power of NPCs; how Valindra relates to Szass Tam, which a purely subjective approach doesn't deal with.

 

[Prism]

We tend to play enemy levels as written but don't usually have a good deal of involvement with the FR named cast. I quite like the idea that the main cast of Neverwinter are only of heroic level - in fact I tend to assume that the majority of heroic characters don't really progress past heroic and paragon characters and NPC begin to have a regional renown e.g 'the north' by about the mid point.

Jarlaxle running 6th level drow seems fine to me considering the level of importance of the job. By that I have to assume that the monster manual drow which are higher level are fairly rare cases. I aslo don't always assume that higher level characters have be in charge and have no problem in principle for a low power but highly connected BBEG. Valindra does stand out a little though from her description in the Drizzt books

Fzoul and Szass Tam seem spot on considering their continent/world spanning influence and the time for which they have been around

Where I do begin to have trouble is when standard humanoids get to about 15+ level. I roughly play that a non elite is equivalent to an elite of 5 levels lower so standard level 18 humanoid is the same as a 13th level elite and therefore for me should have some form of renown. I wouldn't do this myself but modules seem to have no issue introducing high level standard opponents...where do these guys come from and how did they get so good without becoming renowned? Being renowned is something I reserve for elites

 

[S'mon]

Where I do begin to have trouble is when standard humanoids get to about 15+ level. I roughly play that a non elite is equivalent to an elite of 5 levels lower so standard level 18 humanoid is the same as a 13th level elite and therefore for me should have some form of renown. I wouldn't do this myself but modules seem to have no issue introducing high level standard opponents...where do these guys come from and how did they get so good without becoming renowned? Being renowned is something I reserve for elites

I agree with that. If you're a basically anonymous Standard Monster human(oid) then I tend to think you should really be Heroic Tier; maybe low Paragon if Drow, and the Planes will work differently of course - epic mook Efreet are fine in the City of Brass, but Epic mook guards in Waterdeep would not seem right. If High Paragon+ PCs are fighting mundane soldiers of similar level, I think those soldiers should normally be minions. The exception would be rare ultra-elite units like the Malgedan Sunguard IMCs, the Sunguard were the legendary emperors' personal guard in an empire spanning dozens of worlds; if I statted them in 4e they'd be low-Epic Standard or high-Epic minion. But they are clearly 'renowned', albeit as a unit.

 

[Primal]

What approach do your players prefer? Are they FR experts or casual fans? Do they care passionately about consistency or does it matter at all? I don’t think there’s anything wrong – from a mechanical or story perspective – about using Heroic level NPCs as trusted agents of Epic villains. For example, several apprentices of Manshoon and Sememmon were statted as (if I recall correctly) around 6th to 9th level characters. Then there was a major Dragon Cult wizard called Asbras Hlumin, who was 6th level and yet already a significant agent who worked for the upper echelon of that organization. And what about “the Three”, all barely 6th or 7th level assassins (thieves) and yet they were favored by the leaders of the Zhentarim themselves? If you ask me, it comes down to how competent, intelligent and talented one is; something that is not always comprehensively represented by powers, spells or magic items. You could always think of and describe, say, an 8th level NPC as a “rising star” that has already impressed his/her superiors; maybe (s)he’s been given his/her assignment in Neverwinter as a chance to prove his/her worth to the organization, a final test of sorts?



I’m not so sure about de-leveling Epic adversaries, because that might feel inconsistent and awkward to long-time FR fans, but if your players feel that “narrative power” and story is more important than actual game mechanics (i.e. they don’t care if Fzoul is 6th or 28th level when encountered), I don’t see any problem with running Neverwinter CS as is. As for what sort of impact should Heroic level PCs have on the world, I guess that's also up to the DM. Knights of Myth Drannor had a lot of power and influence from the start -- unless I'm mistaken, KoMD members had, for example, saved Azoun and became rulers of Shadowdale by the time they were 6th or 7th level.



I’m a Pathfinder GM, and although I’ve read the 4E rulebooks, I can’t really discuss 4E mechanics in fine detail; furthermore, I don’t have the Neverwinter book. However, I’ve run campaigns in FR for over 20 years, and I’ve never had any problems with players complaining about lower level NPCs having personal relationships with high-level villains.

 

[KarinsDad]

For GMs who are running Forgotten Realms or other settings, and who give some thought to a consistent or semi-consistent NPC power level*, whether or not you use the NCS, I was wondering how you handle NPC power demographics? Do you level down the Epic FRCS NPCs? Do you add 10 levels to the Neverwinter NPCs? Do they both exist at the listed levels?

I run them as written.

The Neverwinter Campaign Setting is a heroic level campaign setting in one small part of the world. Once the PCs get to Paragon level, then they will be traveling the world and a little bit the planes where there are larger cities and bigger threats. Once they get to Epic, they'll be traveling the planes almost exclusively.

I find this to be very consistent. I enjoy the feel that many of the old powerful entities of the Forgotten Realms are still there and still extremely powerful.

The young upstarts in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting are merely that. Lower level upstarts.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I was wondering how you handle NPC power demographics?

I don't think it's a very helpful thing to go into for most games. It doesn't really matter if the King of one place can beat the Emperor of another unless they actually duke it out at some point. Vague descriptions like 'paragon of might' or 'arcanist of matchless power' or whatnot can do until it actually matters.

Still, it can be fun exercise, and give you a feel for your world that can serve to give you inspiration for how things might unfold as the campaign progresses.

Do you add 10 levels to the Neverwinter NPCs? Do they both exist at the listed levels?

I'd go with the existing 'levels,' though I'd 'translate' them (re-stat an Heroic level solo as a Paragon level Standard of the same exp value, for instance) if I ever really needed stats to use vs the PCs. Neverwinter is a single city fallen on very hard times, it makes sense that it's a smaller pond than the rest of the Realms, and it's biggest fish aren't that big.

More broadly, what sort of renown/impact do you think FR PCs should have at Heroic, Paragon & Epic tiers? The FRCG seems to think you should be Epic level before you can take on Manshoon, Fzoul or Szass Tam.

Paragon is supposed to deal with the scale of kingdoms and empires or even a whole world. FR's 'high power' tradition clearly intends to tweak that, though. Maybe, those epic-level types have power and influence and parts to play in more far-reaching stories? They're not just ruling empires but coniving to become gods? That sort of thing, I suppose.