For the first time... apprehension

[Rechan]

The best example I can come up with from memory is the intention to make Sneak Attack usable versus almost anything (ie, they are removing immunity from constructs and undead and so forth).

Now some people may think "Hey, great! Rogues now don't struggle in those fights!" But all I see is that it made sense before and there's nothing wrong with Rogues struggling in those fights. I see the difference between an RPG (even an über war-gamey one like D&D) and a computer or miniature wargame is that RPGs are reflecting fiction and storytelling. If you look at stories, the idea of foes that tax the abilities of the character are a fundamental point.

No, the problem is that it doesn't make sense that you can't sneak attack an undead or construct in the first place.

The explanation is that "Sneak attacks go for vitals or other weak spots, but constructs and undead have no weak spots". Except that, I'm pretty sure if you jump a ghoul from behind and break its thigh with a hammer, it's going to have trouble walking.

If you had, say, used an ooze as an example, I'd have agreed. But undead and constructs have discernable weak points.

 

[Testament]

The best example I can come up with from memory is the intention to make Sneak Attack usable versus almost anything (ie, they are removing immunity from constructs and undead and so forth).

Now some people may think "Hey, great! Rogues now don't struggle in those fights!" But all I see is that it made sense before and there's nothing wrong with Rogues struggling in those fights. I see the difference between an RPG (even an über war-gamey one like D&D) and a computer or miniature wargame is that RPGs are reflecting fiction and storytelling. If you look at stories, the idea of foes that tax the abilities of the character are a fundamental point.

The issue here is that as has been said, Constructs have joints, Undead have important parts to their anatomy. Snapping a zombie's spine or crushing an Iron Golem's knee is going to mess it up real bad. Oozes and Elementals are just one animate mass of whatever, them being immune is fine, but not something that you have to build or used to be a living thing.

What makes the whole thing worse is that when you're building a tomb that's been sealed up for a couple of millennia, whats it going to be full of? Undead and Constructs. I've played a rogue in those sorts of dungeons before, and I've been running the Age of Worms adventure path, and I can tell you that after the third encounter where they can't do a lick of damage, its hard for the rogue to not zone out. The Disrupting Strike alt feature from PHB2 helps somewhat, since you can actually feel like you're contributing somewhat, but its still no substitute for the visceral thrill of sneak attacking something for a whole lotta pain every attack.

There's plenty of ways to make a creature challenging. Having a common monster categorie like Undead just be outright immune to an entire- and more importantly, near essential- class' sole combat option is not a good one.

 

[Dormammu]

No, the problem is that it doesn't make sense that you can't sneak attack an undead or construct in the first place.

According to the book written by Wizards, the reason I gave (ie, Rogues being able to fight all monsters equally) is their reason. The reason you are giving was their specified rationalization to support their reason. It is flawed though. Joints of Golems are not more vulnerable to damage than joints of Humans. And yet Sneak Attack isn't about hamstringing a guy. It's about going for vital organs. Golems and most Undead do not have vital organs. Nor do Oozes and Elementals as pointed out.

Anyway, they specifically state their reason, and it is that which I based my statement on.

The issue here is that as has been said, Constructs have joints, Undead have important parts to their anatomy.
...
There's plenty of ways to make a creature challenging. Having a common monster categorie like Undead just be outright immune to an entire- and more importantly, near essential- class' sole combat option is not a good one.

Second verse, same as the first. As to "ways to make a creature challenging", you are now doing what Wizards is doing: designing the combats purely on per character combat balance and not based on flavor, storytelling, "realism", etc. I restate: if you look at fiction, facing foes you cannot beat directly is a common feature. If you look at most RPGs, having rogue-like characters be inferior to fighter-like characters in combat is also the norm. There's really nothing wrong with it if you don't treat combat as the sole measuring stick for player balance, activity, fun, etc.

 

[Voss]

Go buy Races and Classes. It will remove your apprehension.

Huh.
The latest round of information, including the more detailed R&C stuff, is increasing my apprehension. The designers seem to be mouthing formulas that they think people want to hear, and seem to be simply winging the design decisions. Its also looking a lot more gamist than I want an RPG to be.

Broadly I'm still looking forward to it, but my enthusiasm is dimmed. The best I can come up with at the moment is that at least it will be a smaller trainwreck than 3e currently is. Easier to pick through the wreckage and find the usable stuff.

 

[Gloombunny]

if you don't treat combat as the sole measuring stick for player balance, activity, fun, etc.

You say that like it's a good thing.

Rolling Search and Disable Device a few times while the party moves down a hallway does not make up for being dead weight during two hours of combat.

 

[Voss]

Or being a fighter and being a dead weight whenever out of combat.

 

[pawsplay]

Or being a fighter and being a dead weight whenever out of combat.

Hey, those pack mules aren't going to handle themselves.

... What?

 

[Testament]

Second verse, same as the first. As to "ways to make a creature challenging", you are now doing what Wizards is doing: designing the combats purely on per character combat balance and not based on flavor, storytelling, "realism", etc. I restate: if you look at fiction, facing foes you cannot beat directly is a common feature. If you look at most RPGs, having rogue-like characters be inferior to fighter-like characters in combat is also the norm. There's really nothing wrong with it if you don't treat combat as the sole measuring stick for player balance, activity, fun, etc.

A personal motto of mine when it comes to RPGs, and games in general in fact, is that what makes for good story does not necessarily make for good game. Narrative sense and storytelling are all far more appealing concepts when you're not the one who's being effectively benched from the game by them.

The fact is that at its core, D&D is a combat-driven game, its about killing things and taking their stuff. Since day 1, the bulk of the rule books have been dedicated to combat based rules. Even in more 'high-minded' games like The Burning Wheel and White Wolf's menagerie, a very big chunk of the rules relate to combat. And there are few things more infuriating for a player than to be rendered meaningless in the activity that takes up a big chunk of playtime.

If you've got rogue players who can shrug it off, good for you. I've played with a hell of a lot of people in my seven D&D years at clubs, cons and RPGA events, and I've yet to meet a rogue player who didn't sigh with bitter resignation at the prospect of sitting back and being meaningless for a combat. When you hit the high levels and fights are either marathons or six-real-time-second SoD affairs, it just gets worse, to the point where a rogue player in my AoW games would bring a Gameboy to sessions, he was that meaningless in what were becoming long-running combats. That's when I realised why Wizards introduced the Ghost Strike enchant, enabling rogues to sneak attack undead.

 

[Voss]

Of course, when you hit the high levels, a rogue is perfectly capable of contributing to the 6 second save or die affairs by UMDing a Staff of SoD Spells.

 

[adembroski]

Thank you to everyone who genuinely made an attempt to help me come to grips here... glad to see most of you took my concerns seriously and didn't just act like an ass