For Those Who Love, Hate, or Love & Hate 4E: What Did 4E Do Right?

[Hereticus]

I just started a first level 3.5E character, the first in many years, and it really hit home how much more survivable my 4.0E character was at first level.

The more I play 4.0E, the more it grows on me.

But I think a realistic economic system is essential for my taste of fantasy game, and therefore the price system for magic items and rituals is a disaster for that aspect of the game.

These prices only exist to prevent low level characters from purchasing
higher level things, but item prices that high won't fit into any economic
simulation.

Every system I played in that I enjoyed was heavily house-ruled... AD&D, 2.0E and 3.5E. There are a few things that I believe are broken, and need to be fixed or house-ruled.

Magic Item Cost: As you said, this is a disaster, and I have no idea how to fix it. The one thing I would do is tenth the cost of casting rituals.

Magic Item Availability: The "just add gold" approach to having any item you want is bad. As a DM I would drastically increase the time to cast the Enchant Item ritual, such as a day per level. This would justify the extra cost, and would make it more difficult to get anything you want instantly.

More Utilities / More Rituals: I would like to make most all Utility Spells castible as rituals, like Dispel Magic, Disguise, Dispel Magic, Arcane Gate, etc.

 

[frankthedm]

Mundane stuff sells for 1/5th, if at all & Armor Recosting: PCs are not merchants & the game's name isn't Scroungers & Scavengers. PCs shouldn't be going up a tax bracket if they fight creatures who need platemail to fulfill their challenge.

Two handed weapons don't multiply strength bonus: 3E's 1.5 str & 2 for 1 power attack was like giving a kanabō to an oni*. Thank god that was dialed back.

Feats got scaled back: In a class based system, classes should define the character's capabilities.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To be completely honest:
- I have played every edition from 1977 on, as well as 50+ other RPGs.
- I was a cautious optimist upon the announcement of 4Ed.
- I disliked most of what I saw in the prerelease, and upon getting the Core 3, was more disappointed.
- I will be a cautious optimist upon the announcement of 5Ed.

The one clear win I can think of is getting rid of the disjunction between PC level and ability/spell/power level.

I can't tell you how many players I initiated into the game who found the whole thing about 3rd level mages not having 3rd level spells to be a brain-warper. The only other thing I've found that was anywhere near as confusing for noobs was the different scales for Str and all other attributes (that 3Ed did away with).

Having Nth level abilities being gained at Nth level (and N+1st level abilities at N+1st level, etc.) is sooooooo much more intuitive. I can't imagine how much easier it must be for those initiating novices to NOT have to explain that old design quirk.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

The best part about 4E for me is that warriors and magic users are no longer playing different games. Now, the difference between running a barbarian and a wizard is just one of tactics, not an entirely different mindset. In 3rd edition, I had numerous players who were hesitant to play as a wizard, their favorite fantasy archetype, because they didn't want to be bogged down in the magic system or to risk other players judging them to be poor players.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Fair enough.
I'll point out that you are still replacing "what you find fun", with "the fun".
Magic: the gathering puts the fun right up and center.
WHFRP puts the fun right up and center.
3E puts the fun right up and center.
4E puts the fun right up and center.

To be really specific (and hopefully not to derail the thread), let me give a final example of what I'm talking about. How about the grapple rules?

3e grapple rules were kind of realistic. They factored in size, strength, attack bonus, and you could take feats and other choices that made you better at grappling if you wanted to.

4e grapple rules are a lot less realistic. Creatures can grab you automatically, and you make a single dice roll to escape. There is relatively little ability to alter this.

The 4e rules are designed, to my mind, with making the experience of being grappled a fun part of the session as the core idea. The 3e rules were designed to be a good simulation of being grabbed - the fact that they weren't that much fun to use seems to be a secondary concern.

Other things I like about 4e:

Invokers - I got to see one in action in my game last Monday, and he rocked! Blasting out lightning and really helping out with the team.
Paragon Paths - means that all characters will have a clear way of distinguishing themselves from each other, but can also be tied in with wider organisations in the campaign world. Fluff and crunch, working together!
Epic Destinies - really makes Epic feel different from other tiers. Can't wait to see them in action.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

[
Divine Prayers: 4.0E killed the Cleric as it was in the previous editions, and I loved playing those Clerics. 4.0E Clerics are closer to 3.5E Paladins, 4.0E needs a divine controller. I have not yet seen a Druid, so I have no comment.

I didn't enjoy playing 3.x Clerics. And I don't like 4E Clerics either.
But Invokers, those rock. They are the Divine Controllers...

 

[Betote]

The 4e rules are designed, to my mind, with making the experience of being grappled a fun part of the session as the core idea.

Why do I think this might lead to something very, very wrong?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Quantity of Books Required to Play: Any group can play with just the three core books, but it seems that WotC is bleeding us dry with an increased quantity of core books.

Just an observation on this: If there are any 4Ed loving DMs out there who even remotely resemble some of the guys in my group who hate 4Ed, no amount of labeling a book "Core" will have even the slightest persuasive force in convincing them to use them. I wouldn't be surprised to see a distinction between Core and "True Core" down the road.

FWIW, were I one who liked 4Ed, that wouldn't be an issue for me- I love expansions. My only issue with this sales structure is that stuff I'd like to be using seems to be spread out over a year's + release schedule- inconvenient for me.

 

[Rolflyn]

The one clear win I can think of is getting rid of the disjunction between PC level and ability/spell/power level.

Hey, thanks. I've been looking for something to post in this thread, and now I have it. In general, the things posted in this thread are not a win for me, but this one is. If I were to revise my favorite D&D, removing all the different types of levels would be high on my list.

 

[Storminator]

There's a lot of things I like about 4e.

Healing Surges. Love it out of combat, and love it in combat.

Action economy. Everyone's turns are quick, everyone's turns have about the same amount of impact.

Powers design. I love the way every class plays completely differently, but off the same base set of rules.

Classes. So many 4e classes look like pure awesome. Certainly the ones I've had a chance to play have all been great.

Retraining. Something not working? Change it. Need some feat/power/skill for this adventure but not for the rest of your PC's life? Have no fear, just take it! You can swap it out later.

Something every level. Pure win. Why even bother to level if you get nothing new?

Defenses. Fast, easy, sensible.

Single action attacks. Not so much for the smooth game flow, but because everyone moves around all the time. And the game flows smoothly too.

Action points. Do more on my turn? Sign me up! I can't wait for paragon tier, when I can slap an extra bonus on that too.

Teamwork. The crowning achievement of 4e, teamwork is more important than your PC. So full of win it's hard to overstate.

Skills. Taking a skill training feat is resources well spent, since each skill is pretty important.

Death saves. Drama - 'nuff said.

Monsters. Fast, easy, purposeful.

Probably enough for now...

PS