Force Grip and dark side points

[daddystabz]

I keep running into a problem lately in my hometown Dawn of Defiance campaign. I play currently as a 7th lvl jedi and one of my force powers is Force Grip. I use this power sometimes in fights to help take down bad guys that are attacking my allies and myself. My GM lately seems to have been doing some soul searching and feels that he has been too lenient and/or has overlooked giving out dark side points for acts he considers to be a transaction. He is trying to interpret what the book says about transactions that would deserve a dark side point. He has interpreted this part of the book in the extreme though, looking into giving a dark side point each time Force Grip is used, even though it is a neutral power and lacks a dark side descriptor.
I argued that issuing a dark side point for something like this should be highly situational. If I were to use it to blatantly torture and/or kill another living being for no good reason or to just make a statement then I feel it would deserve a dark side point. But I feel that if my allies and myself are being attacked and our lives or the lives of other innocents are in danger then I feel I am within my duties as a jedi, and indeed within the jedi code, to use this power to defend lives. If I were to use it on a fleeing opponent or on one that is trying to surrender, to blatantly kill him or her then I feel it would deserve a dark side point. I also mentioned that Force Grip can be used without being a choke action. I even read that Jedi Counseling article from the WoTC website that gives a set of guidelines GMs can use to determine transgressions, which seem to advocate my position, but he did not seem too swayed. I also mentioned that these kinds of things were discussed on the Order 66 Podcast and that it seemed that the GM Chris and GM Dave saw things my way, but he still seemed unsure.
What do you all think about this? Do I seem correct to you in my interpretation or do you think the GM should give a dark side point every time Force Grip is used?

 

[MerricB]

Dark side points and Force powers are somewhat of a problem. My own interpretation of the situation (which derives from old experiences with the d6 game, although I'm playing in a current Dawn of Defiance game), is that if you use a Force power to directly harm or kill another living being, you gain a Dark Side Point.

(woo! split infinitive!)

So, for Force Grip, if you use it purely to restrain another being (no damage inflicted), then that's not Dark Side point worthy. Damage a character? Dark side point.

I also believe that about Move Object - bash someone over the head with a boulder? That's a Dark Side point. Bash a droid? No problem!

Yes, this limits Light Side Jedi pretty much to blasters and lightsabers (and more of the latter) if they want to harm other creatures, but it's also a key part of the balance of Star Wars, as Jedi can very easily dominate the game.

Cheers!

 

[daddystabz]

I completely disagree. If this was taken to this extreme then a jedi would be turn dark side everytime he went into battle! If a jedi were to use force powers in combat when fighting a sith opponent then he would be one of them before the fight was over simply by using the force. How did any jedi get through the Clone Wars without turning to the dark side? Using a power should NOT garner a dark side point. Only the WAY it is used should. Jedi HAVE to KILL people sometimes in defense of the lives of others. Soemtimes it is done with a lightsaber and sometimes a force power kills someone. A jedi never WANTS to kill but sometimes it is necessary to defend the lives and well being of the innocent. Also keep in mind that you can get dark side points for doing anything blatantly dark, including using your lightsaber, not just force powers.

My GM wants to give a dark side point everytime the power is used to harm or kill a living being. I think it should be situational.

 

[El Mahdi]

It kind of depends on how you view the Force in the Star Wars universe. Before the prequel movies, when the only info we had on the force was what Obi Wan passed on to Luke in Episode IV, the view of Darkside and Lightside was more philosophical than absolute. After the prequels and the introduction of the Midi-Chlorian concept, the Force became more a cause-and-effect, science based power, rather than a philosophical belief with pseudo-religious overtones. In my opinion, the following considerations determine whether an use of the Force is Light or Dark:

-If you use the philosophical concept, then intent is what matters on determining whether the Darkside or Lightside is accessed.

-If you use the scientific Midi-Chlorian concept, then the power itself determines what source fuels it.

I really think, in any Star Wars game, due to the importance the concept of the Force has in the game and mythos, it's important for a GM and his (or her) players to decide just what the Force is for their game and what that entails. Without that, it's open to too much subjective interpretation as the game progresses. Maybe you need to sit down with your GM and find out exactly what the Force is in your game.

 

[Henry]

I solved it in my Star Wars games in a WEG sort of way -- Whenever a Jedi used Force Grip in my games, I told them that it felt REALLY good and freeing when they used the power - and gave them another free use of the power whenever their use of force grip resulted in someone's pain or death. When they used the freebie, they automatically gained a dark side point. I did have one guy do completely over, by choice, just because he was doing cool stuff all the time when I offered him all that free power. We even had a dramatic "turncoat" scene at the last game, and he turned on the party and sided with the bad guys at the climactic last battle of the campaign. He died horribly when the party concentrated fire on him.... But the players absolutely loved it.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

My GM wants to give a dark side point everytime the power is used to harm or kill a living being. I think it should be situational.

Well, in defense of your GM, up until now every time you used something like Force Choke/Grip in a Star Wars game it was a Dark Side point. Period.

And the two previous incarnations of the Star Wars game by WotC have it that way as well.

You might not like it, you might think it's not fair, you might think it's stupid... but there's a long history for it being that way. There really wasn't any moral relativism. You did good things, or you did bad things and that was it.

Now, you say you think it should be "situational". Let's be honest here, there's probably going to almost never be a situation where you're going to qualify for it, because you're going to make sure that you keep force gripping people "for a good reason".

I'm going to guess that you've been using force grip a fair amount; enough that it's bugging the GM. You say it's only "sometimes"; well, "sometimes" is in the eye of the beholder. You might not think it's very often, but I'm willing to bet that the GM feels like you use it at least once just about every fight.

So in an attempt to rein you in and feel like he's got some control (or a chance to challenge you in a fight without running the risk of killing the other characters), he's decided to go with an old-school interpretation of force grip.

And the entry here doesn't really make Force Grip sound like a completely neutral power either:
Telekinesis - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

At the end of the day, you're wanting to rule-lawyer this. I'm not sure how ENWorld is going to help you too much with this, unless your GM is really going to be persuaded by you saying, "Dude, I went online to a forum, and all the people there totally think I shouldn't get Dark Side points for Force Gripping someone."

You'd be a lot better served doing one of two things:

1. Respect the GM's decision and abide by what he's decided
2. Accept that the GM feels you've been abusing the power, and see if you can negotiate a limited use of it without incurring Dark Side points. Something like, "one use per game session" or "one use every other game session" for "free" (no Dark Side points) or something along those lines.

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk here, it just seems like a pretty clear case of a player saying, "I want things my way" and the GM saying, "No." Arguing with him about it isn't going to change his mind, it's just going to piss him off. And if you eventually batter him down with rule lawyering and "logical" arguements, then one of two things is probably going to happen.

A) He'll start looking for ways to screw your character. Preferably using the rules, just so you have to suck it up.

B) He's going to have less fun in running the game. Depending on the GM, this can mean either he'll burn-out quick and not want to run any more games, or he might just quit putting effort into the game.

Disclaimer:
I personally don't like Star Wars games. I recently agreed to play in a Star Wars game for the first time in... 7 or 8 years. It's the d6 system (as usual), and as usual I am not playing any kind of Force user or Force sensitive or anything like that. My standard request when someone asks me if I want to play in a Star Wars game is, "Can I be a Jawa jedi?" How the GM reacts tells me whether I should even bother joining the game or not. Surprisingly, this GM said, "If someone hadn't already asked to be a Failed Jedi, I'd totally let you do that." So I agreed to join the game, and am now playing a bounty hunter named Sue; he's modeled after Jayne from Firefly.

I understand how frustrating it is to have this picture of being a bad-ass jedi and how it's getting stomped down. I've spent 20 years playing fantasy games and I'm sick and tired of the level 1-5 "run from a rat" style of play that's _still_ popular. I just think you're going about this the wrong way.

If you were just interested in being able to use Force Grip in a "stylish" fashion, then I'd suggest asking the GM if you could just use Force Grip as a "special effect". No mechanical benefit (knocking people down or whatever), just a way of being able to describe something a little bit cooler and give it that "jedi flair". In a game I'm currently running, one of the players is a dual hatchet wielding character. He doesn't get the _mechanical benefits_ of being a dual wielder (extra attacks or whatever), but it does mean he can describe cool stuff. He's happy with that, so I don't sweat it.

 

[Victim]

Don't worry, casual maiming is perfectly permissable.

 

[Angrydad]

Really, it's entirely the GM's call. As the DM/GM in plenty of D&D as well as a little Star Wars d20 I'm likely to be flexible about Dark Side points and Force Power usage. For example, the Drain Energy skill in SWd20 description says that any use of the power earns a DS point for the user. However, Drain Energy only allows a Force user to sap energy from mechanical sources, like batteries, generators, power cells, etc. If the Drain Energy skill allowed a user to literally drain the energy from a living creature I'd say they would earn a DS every use. Our house rule is that if Drain Energy directly leads to the death/harm of a creature then a DS point is earned. Intent doesn't matter. If the player drains an enemy's swoop and the guy crashes into a crowd of bystanders they're most likely going to get a DS point for reckless use of the power. If they meant for him to crash into the crowd, then DS point for sure.

 

[Ginnel]

Well if your DM is going by the films and cartoons I can understand his view entirely, I can't remember an instant I saw a light side jedi use force grip on an enemy, force push for sure all the time in fact, but when it comes down to it they used force jump, force push and a lightsaber to cause damage.

did you see obi wan crush the circuits inside a droid? or a jedi use the force to hold someone in place as un/intentional intimidation? nope

We did see yoda lift an x-wing out of a swamp but I'm sure he didn't hurt anyone with it.

The force in my opinion is more strict than any D&D paladin's code.

 

[Ahglock]

Tough call. Back in the d6 day any use of the force to attack was a dark side point. They tool cues from yoda it is used for defense never for attack.

Once the prequels came out jedi were force slamming everything that moved. Heck Yoda mr never for attack did that oh so cool shoulder shrug that force slammed to imperial guards into the wall.

Still force grip always had a malicious feel to it, at least how it was portrayed in the movies. I'm having a hard time seeing how telekinetically restraining and then crushing to death someone is on the side of the light.

In this version does the power restrian people at all or is it just damage. If it restrains I logically can see a jedi just restraining if he wants to stay on the side of the light. If you can end a fight wihtout killing someone with the force I think a jedi should. Though for some reason you can cut people down with your lightsaber even though you are guiding it with the force.