Force Grip and dark side points

[Blackrat]

Dark side points and Force powers are somewhat of a problem. My own interpretation of the situation (which derives from old experiences with the d6 game, although I'm playing in a current Dawn of Defiance game), is that if you use a Force power to directly harm or kill another living being, you gain a Dark Side Point.

I'm with Merric here. Strickly speaking, any use of Force to do lethal harm is trangression.

But as a GM I might be lenient enough to give you chance to use it to do Stun damage and as such not getting dark side point. Suggest this to your GM and see what he thinks of it.

 

[amethal]

Well if your DM is going by the films and cartoons I can understand his view entirely, I can't remember an instant I saw a light side jedi use force grip on an enemy.

Luke uses it in a non-lethal fashion on a guard in Jabba's palace.

Yoda uses it on an Emperor's guard in Revenge of the Sith, possibly with lethal effect. I think that was the reason it is not an automatic dark side point in Saga whereas it was in previous d20 versions.

 

[daddystabz]

Also, Mace Windu uses it on General Grievous, crushing his chest with it and thus giving Grievous the cough that he has all the time. I think people misunderstand jedi completely. Jedi TRY to not harm others with the force or at all for that matter BUT if they are forced to kill they will KILL to defend themselves and other innocents. Why is there no consideration of me killing a bad guy with my lightsaber? Did Obi-Wan absolutely have to slice Darth Maul in half with his saber? Jedi are led by the force with their sabers in combat. The force is what makes them deadly in combat. No one seems to ever question or think of giving dark side points for using a lightsaber to harm others. I am sorry but the force sometimes has to be used to harm others by lightside jedi in order to protect others. What is the use of taking a freaking force power if everytime you use it you go right down the dark path?

By the way, the GM didn't decide to enact a houserule on us because I was abusing the power or even using it too much. I in fact rarely use the power at all, only having used it very sparingly since I have had it. He actually was reading through the core rulebook and came to the conclusion that he hasn't been issuing dark side points often enough. What made him look in the core rulebook about this stuff is actually another character in our campaign who is a jedi as well. He goes overboard with his force powers a LOT and kills everything in sight. We joke about him all the time saying that it is only a matter of time till he starts spewing force lightning and we nicknamed him Anakin. We try to hide Tusken women and children from him. In one episode of our Dawn of Defiance campaign he used Move Object to drop a Z-95 Headhunter space fighter on Durga the Hutt, killing him.

I will quote to you a recent Jedi Counseling article that seems to agree with me that this all should be situational:

"Q: I'm having some problems deciding what type of transgression some actions should be. How can you tell when something is blatantly evil (a major transgression), questionably evil (a moderate transgression), or dubiously evil (a minor transgression)?

A: While the precise divisions are ultimately up to the GM, enforcing them as loosely or tightly as appropriate for the campaign, here are some guidelines to help you decide on corner cases. To decide if an action is "blatantly evil," ask yourself the following questions:

• Did the action harm a sentient, living character?
• Did the action harm a character that was at your mercy (helpless, unable to meaningfully defend itself, or something similar)?
• Did the action cause serious harm to a character (physically, mentally, or emotionally)?
• Was the action unnecessary to protect yourself or another character from an immediate, obvious threat?
• Was the action deliberate and the result intended?

If the answer to all of these questions is "Yes," then the action is almost certainly "blatantly evil" (a major transgression) and deserves increasing the character's Dark Side Score. Examples include murder, torture (including acts such as intentional mutilation or maiming), slavery, rape, and any similar act considered reprehensible by most civilizations.
If exactly one question can be answered "No," then the action is probably "questionably evil" (a moderate transgression), which might be worth increasing the character's Dark Side Score. Examples include assassinating an Imperial warlord who is about to give orders to exterminate the population of a planet (it's in defense of others, but he's still at your mercy), tormenting a droid to extract information, or starting an unnecessary fight that results in serious injury.
If exactly two of the questions can be answered "No," then the action is probably "dubiously evil" (a minor transgression) and likely doesn't deserve increasing the character's Dark Side Score. Examples include killing in self-defense or recklessly (but accidentally) causing injury to others.
If three or more questions can be answered "No," then the action probably is not a dark side transgression at all. For example, destroying an object is not a transgression unless doing so also causes some sort of substantial harm to a character. Similarly, hunting an animal (not sentient) in the wilderness (not helpless) for sustenance (protecting yourself from starvation) is perfectly acceptable in all but the most unusual circumstances.
Obviously, you'll still need to interpret the situation accordingly. How strictly do you want to define "harm"? For example, is a rich character harmed in a significant way by having a minor treasure stolen? Is a threat imminent and real, or is the character merely trying to justify unnecessary aggression? The purpose of these questions isn't to give you a never-fail method but to help you evaluate an action. When in doubt, go with your gut instinct. The more you have to parse and explain an action to make it acceptable, the more likely it is to be a transgression."

This is directly from GM Sarli from Wizards of the Coast, one of the game's developers and is in my opinion the best way to look at these situations. If I use Force Grip to defend myself and others from harm and accidentally I roll high enough with it to kill the enemy, you can answer easily two of these questions as "no" and thus it would not deserve a dark side point.

 

[Blackrat]

Why is there no consideration of me killing a bad guy with my lightsaber? Did Obi-Wan absolutely have to slice Darth Maul in half with his saber?

Actually you have a point here. I think he should have gotten a DS point there. And who says he didn't? It's not too hard to get rid of it either.

I am sorry but the force sometimes has to be used to harm others by lightside jedi in order to protect others.

Yes, you are right. Which is exactly why you can also atone with meditation (and spending FP) to get rid of that DS point. When it is necessary to do Dark Side deeds, you do, and afterwards you contemplate about it for long time to see why it came to this, how could it have been avoided etc... (Game mechanically: Use FP, spend time in meditation.)

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

The tricky thing is, in SWSaga, Force Grip is NOT a [dark] power, almost entirely, I'm sure, due to the scene in RotJ where Luke uses it on a guard in Jabba's palace.

They way I've ruled it in my game: You get dark side points if you maintain it long enough to kill your opponent. If, while under the effects of your force grip, an ally kills the creature you have gripped, you get a DSP and your ally gets a DSP. Also, every round I make an attack roll against the Jedi's will defense with a bonus equal to his Dark Side Score+the number of rounds he has sustained the power. If it beats his Will Defense, the Jedi MUST spend the action to sustain the power because it feels nice...really nice. If it doesn't beat Will defense, then he may choose to sustain or not, his choice. Having a life in the palm of his hand isn't addictive...yet.

 

[Blackrat]

The tricky thing is, in SWSaga, Force Grip is NOT a [dark] power, almost entirely, I'm sure, due to the scene in RotJ where Luke uses it on a guard in Jabba's palace.

They way I've ruled it in my game: You get dark side points if you maintain it long enough to kill your opponent. If, while under the effects of your force grip, an ally kills the creature you have gripped, you get a DSP and your ally gets a DSP. Also, every round I make an attack roll against the Jedi's will defense with a bonus equal to his Dark Side Score+the number of rounds he has sustained the power. If it beats his Will Defense, the Jedi MUST spend the action to sustain the power because it feels nice...really nice. If it doesn't beat Will defense, then he may choose to sustain or not, his choice. Having a life in the palm of his hand isn't addictive...yet.

That is actually pretty nice solution. I might use that if I ever get to run SW again.

 

[Ginnel]

Ok nice couterpoints, but they didn't do it all the time and who says they didn't get dark side points for it?

Mace and Yoda are not infallible, they have dark side points maybe the good they did cancelled these out though.

Luke was definetly more of a grey area type jedi especially as he didn't have the detailed tutoring a jedi normally requires, anger came quickly to him and blowing up the death star must have screwed him up quite a lot, even though it did an immense amount of good.

If you used a force power and it ended up killing someone thats dark side point right there.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I completely disagree. If this was taken to this extreme then a jedi would be turn dark side everytime he went into battle! If a jedi were to use force powers in combat when fighting a sith opponent then he would be one of them before the fight was over simply by using the force. How did any jedi get through the Clone Wars without turning to the dark side? Using a power should NOT garner a dark side point. Only the WAY it is used should. Jedi HAVE to KILL people sometimes in defense of the lives of others. Soemtimes it is done with a lightsaber and sometimes a force power kills someone. A jedi never WANTS to kill but sometimes it is necessary to defend the lives and well being of the innocent. Also keep in mind that you can get dark side points for doing anything blatantly dark, including using your lightsaber, not just force powers.

My GM wants to give a dark side point everytime the power is used to harm or kill a living being. I think it should be situational.

I gotta go with Yoda on this one:

" A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack."

The muppet is correct.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I'm stepping out of the thread. At the end of the day, this seems to be a case of a player trying to rule lawyer why the GM is wrong. And it's rule lawyering something that's vague and fuzzy and explicitly up to GM interpretation in the first place. Even the quoted bit says things like "Probably", "ultimately up to the GM", "guidelines" and so forth.

 

[Remus Lupin]

As a subpoint to the general discussion, it's worth noting that Dark Side points should not be given lightly if you're playing "Dawn of Defiance" according to the campaign standards, since, unless I'm mistaken, they don't allow you to erase Dark Side points, so once you have one, you're stuck with it. For that reason alone, I'd be very sure, if I were DMing, that I only gave them out when they were warranted.

But, as a philosophical matter, I tend to view the issue as one of intent: Is the Jedi using the force to "defend" (in the broad sense), or is it being used out of anger/rage/fear, etc. My take is that certain force powers are fueled particularly by rage, such as lightening. I would usually include grip in that as well, but given that the rules don't give it a "Dark Side" descriptor, I'd rule that using it did not produce a Dark Side point, although depending on circumstances, it might.