Forced Movement - AKA Autowinning KotS (spoilers)

[Arbitrary]

So the game I'm running made it to the final encounter of KotS and faced Kalarel. In the first round after Kalarel teleported to the rune in front of the opening to the Shadowfell the Warlock used Diabolic Grasp, picked up Kalarel's fig, thought very carefully, and shifted him into the portal.

The end.

Any living creature who enters the Shadowfell through way of that portal is instantly slain.

Now, I was well aware long ago what the module said and of course there are any number of ways to have Kalarel not die instantly like that, but because I had made quite a bit of changes already and I knew there was a pretty ugly encounter just on the horizon I let it go. I'm not writing this to complain about a poorly written final encounter and how dare they waste my money and blah blah blah.

If I wanted it changed, I'd have changed it.

I was giving some of the players a ride home and we started talking about it and one of them had a very interesting theory. Maybe, just maybe, it was intentional. It probably wasn't, but I still thought it was a neat idea.

The first encounter in the Keep on the Shadowfell has a disguised pit trap in it with a bunch of rats. The players are maybe level 2 and the fight for my group really showcased the dangers of getting pushed into traps. It was pretty rough having people take damage, fall prone, take more from the rats, try and get out, fail, try again, and so on. A simple hole turned into a mixture of crowd control and sustained damage. It was hideous.

The first encounter on the second floor has a 30foot well in it with 5 feet of water that does a huge 3d10. By the time the group got there they were third level, the Cleric had Command to go with the Warlock's Diabolic Grasp and the Fighter had Tide of Iron. In the first round two Hobgoblins were nearly dead having been tossed in. A third made his save. Initially I thought the encounter had turned into free exp for the players but the tides turned when some minions pushed some PCs in and the fight was very, very rough. It got rougher when one of the hobgoblins cut the rope hanging down.

In the top floor of Kalarel's chamber is an encounter with a 50ft hole and again, 3d10 points of damage. Again the players tossed enemies to their doom. "Well, Kalarel knows they are there, that's for sure."

And then, at the final encounter, round 1, Kalarel goes into the Shadowfell and dies.

Here is what I mean when I said it could be intentional. Given the scaling danger of forced movement in the module, and given that it is a new mechanic for the system, it may have been set up in such a way as to absolutely drill into the players heads the power of forced movement. Even the trap room before Kalarel's chamber had statues that pushed players into additional traps.

So, the moral of Keep on the Shadowfell, just may be MOVEMENT MOVEMENT MOVEMENT. Throughout this entire module it was the MVP and the Silent Killer.

 

[Jack99]

Well, the adventure states that should K be pushed in, or die near the portal, he could come back later, as an undead. You could still make this ruling, and using him later on.

As a DM, I would never mind if my players do something like that, in fact, I encourage it. Sure, it can be a bit of a downer at times, if you had your heart set on some cool and long fight, but as long as the players think it is cool, then I am okay with it.

 

[JGulick]

Not a bad ending story-wise, if a bit anti-climactic. I have to assume Kalarel failed his 8+ save when moved into dangerous terrain, but there's more than a 1-in-3 chance of that, so sure. Evil bad guy rants and monologues, first attack pushes him into his diabolic device and good triumphs again.

Forced movement is one of the best new things in 4E, IMO, but I think you're over-selling it here. Especially against Elites (+2 saves) and Solos (+5 saves), pushing people into dangerous places is rarely the best way to do damage. But as a side-effect to an attack, it's a good one!

 

[Dalzig]

Forced movement is one of the best new things in 4E, IMO, but I think you're over-selling it here. Especially against Elites (+2 saves) and Solos (+5 saves), pushing people into dangerous places is rarely the best way to do damage. But as a side-effect to an attack, it's a good one!

It's debatable whether a portal counts as hindering terrain so the monster gets a Saving Throw. I'd say it's up to each DM whether or not to allow the saving throw. I'd look at the characters' available powers. If they have anymore forced movement, I'd allow saving throws. If they only have one such effect, he's going in.

 

[Arbitrary]

All I ever saw on that was -

"If you're forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall."

Is there more somewhere else? As much as Kalarel probably didn't want to enter the Shadowfell it was just an open portal.

 

[Dalzig]

All I ever saw on that was -

"If you're forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall."

Is there more somewhere else? As much as Kalarel probably didn't want to enter the Shadowfell it was just an open portal.

DMG 44. "Targets forced into hindering terrain receive a saving throw immediately before entering the unsafe square they are forced into."

Hindering terrain is later explained as "prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight."

 

[JGulick]

All I ever saw on that was -

"If you're forced over a precipice or a pit, you can try to catch yourself before you fall."

Is there more somewhere else? As much as Kalarel probably didn't want to enter the Shadowfell it was just an open portal.

The DMG rule (p.44) allows the save for any sort of (vaguely defined) Hindering Terrain. Hindering Terrain is defined (as I said, vaguely) n DMG p. 61 in such a way that I would say includes any terrain that does damage if entered, which I would rule includes gates to certain death.

A 65% change of saving is, in effect, the rules built-in bias against this sort of anti-climax when fighting an Elite (and an 80% save for Solos, making it even less an issue there, where such a result could really deaden the ending).

Edit: That is, 'what Dalzig said'. Only 11 posts on the board and already ninjaed!

 

[Arbitrary]

Alright, let me get out a d20.

Nope, rolled a six. He was going to go in anyway. Even if I count an open door as hindering terrain I can't count the first three squares of tentacles that are his allies.

My larger point was that it appears with the scaling danger of terrain that by the end of the module you should have a healthy respect for it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Don't you need line of effect or line of sight or some such? I don't think you can move someone else through the portal like that, unless you bullrush them.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Alright, let me get out a d20.

Nope, rolled a six. He was going to go in anyway. Even if I count an open door as hindering terrain I can't count the first three squares of tentacles that are his allies.

My larger point was that it appears with the scaling danger of terrain that by the end of the module you should have a healthy respect for it.

My group certainly has a healthy respect for it. We have used it to great effect many times, but there is a flip side as many monster can move you as well. Overall I think it makes combat much, much more interesting and creative IMHO.